I have just found out that one of our offices has opened a number of individual accounts for customers who have refused to provide a SSN, saying that they operate and live under the "common law" and they don't have SSN's. I know our bank can require what we want to, but does anyone know of anything more definitive that I can use to not only deny the person that is requesting another account, but close the ones that are already opened (in 1999)? I can cite the USA PATRIOT Act CIP, for one, but I need more. They are non-interest bearing accounts. Thank you.

For any account opened since 9/30/03, your bank did not have any option. It had to obtain the SSN of any US citizen opening an account. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you haven't already closed any such account out, do so post haste.

As for accounts opened prior to the effective date of the CIP rules, BSA regulations have required for years that we obtain a TIN for each account opened.

But your ultimate answer can be "Because we decide whom we wish to do business with." If you want to rid yourselves of these accounts, do so. No explanation is needed. Simply write to give the customer whatever notice period is called for in your deposit agreement, and inform him or her you will close the account on (date), and you will send a check for the balance.

And then go back and make sure your staff are retrained on the requirements of CIP, making them accountable for any future such failures to follow policy.

Quote:

---

I need more

---

No, you don't. As John notes, BSA has required TINs on deposit accounts for a very long time. By any other name, your customers are simply tax cheats and you do not need the kind of trouble they always bring - give them the boot.

Many individuals (as in libertarians), groups (such as Amish and Mennonites), and even nations (as in Indian nations) claim exemptions from conventional processes.

Nevertheless, the reality is that they are presumed to be terrorists, drug dealers and tax cheats until proven innocent.

We all know what Ken is talking about. There are very few legitimate reasons for a person not having a SSN or ITIN. Usually, those that refuse to give the SSN based on some notion that they are exempt from Federal Income Taxes actually have a SSN but just refuse to produce it. Maybe it is only me, but I have noticed that many of those are more than willing to provide their SSN if there is some monetary benefit to them. If you want to find out more about these fine and upstanding citizens, go to Tax Cheats

It would have been more judicious of me to point out that the claim that they operate and live under the "common law" is a catch phrase for tax protesters. That is what I keyed on. (If you are wondering what that phrase means, it doesn't mean anything.) As bank customers, tax protesters are in a class by themselves as a pain in the patootie(sp?).

However, there was no suggestion that you can tar everyone without a TIN with the same brush, as indicated in this thread.

All US Citizens are required to have a SS number. Regardless if amish or not...

Quote:

---

All US Citizens are required to have a SS number. Regardless if amish or not...

---

If they want to open a bank account, yes, as clearly indicated by the first two posts above and the entire thread to which the link is provided.

Quote:

---

All US Citizens are required to have a SS number. Regardless if amish or not...

---

From an Amish Web Site:


Do the Amish pay taxes?
Self-employed Amish do not pay Social Security tax. Those employed by non- Amish employers do pay Social Security tax. The Amish do pay real estate, state and federal income taxes, county taxes, sales tax, etc.

The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs. Section 310 of the Medicare section of the Social Security act has a sub-section that permits individuals to apply for exemption from the self-employment tax if he is a member of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to Social Security benefits but that makes reasonable provision of taking care of their own elderly or dependent members. The Amish have a long history of taking care of their own members. They do not have retirement communities or nursing homes; in most cases, each family takes care of their own, and the Amish community gives assistance as needed.

Thus, not all Amish are required to have a SSN. Only those that have federal tax obligations are required to have a SSN.

Quote:

---

Wait a minute!!! An Amish website???

---

Okay, technicality. It's a website about the Amish.

Amish

"All US Citizens are required to have a SS number. Regardless if amish or not..."

BS. Cite the law that states this.

Where in BSA does it state a TIN is required for each account opened? Of course I have someone who needs to see it in sriting.

It is from CIP section 103.121(b)(i) which can be found on page 80 here . It requires that when accounts are opened for US Persons a taxpayer identification number be collected.

BSA 103.34 (a)(1) has reference to the requirement for a TIN on each account for those opened prior to enactment of the USA Patriot Act (1970s - October 1, 2003)if that is also of issue.

We do have some Amish that are very old order & refuse to provide the number. We do our CIP using property tax bills, feed store receipts etc., always making sure we obtain multiple forms. When we spoke with the IRS on the phone they indicated the people running the businesses/farms normally have the socials but the spouses (unless involved in running/owning the business) often had no social security number. They said they very frequently find that the females do not have one.

You may want to run this by your Internal Auditor, Legal Department, or even your friendly neighborhood examiner.

The Reg clearly states that any US Person (= citizen), which I believe the Amish are still considered to be, must provide a Tax ID Number. Period.

I wouldn't want to be surprised by the (likely negative) results of an audit in this area -- Bank Secrecy is nothing to take liberties with.

It's really rather simple, even if you don't agree with the rule:

Are you a U.S. citizen? If you are, you must have and provide a social security number to open a banking relationship. If you refuse to provide the number and refuse to apply for one, we must refuse to open the account. There is no room for interpretation, negotiation or forbearance.

Several of the largest US banks that do business in Amish markets have accepted "no TIN" from Amish when opening accounts, based on feedback from the IRS, bank attorneys and internal audit groups. Yes, I too was amazed (I'm a software consultant from Texas where everyone has a TIN) and for 2 banks I worked with this was as recent as early last year. I'm curious what they are doing since CIP was finalized....

Prior to CIP, it was a standard banking practice in central PA and northern OH, where there are a lot of Amish communities, to open accounts without TINs. Now, as John indicates, it's a lay down violation of law. You might want to post in the OH and PA forums and verify what practice those banks are currently following. Those that I have spoken with are adhering to the law.

by law you don not have to acquire a ssn.
and the law states you cannot be denied any benefits by the sate , city, or federal organizations for not disclosing your ssn. you can get what you want, you might just have to go to court for a while.
You could allways get a city, state, or federal bank accounts. they are run by the government.

What law are you referring to? Was it passed prior to the Patriot Act? On your SS card it says it isn't for identification purposes. We wouldn't accept the card as a form of ID. But since the passage of the Patriot Act, we do not open accounts without a SSN for US citizens.

Anon #370187 ,
Before you further enlighten us as to why banks "might just have to go to court for a while," you might want to read this. You have been misled.

Question for John and Ken. If we already have an existing relationship with the customer, and that same customer opens a new account. Is a SSN required if our policy states that CIP is not required for existing customers. I suppose the key point is, the requirments of CIP as to the requirements of the policy.

Thanks

The regulation allows you to exempt current established customers from ID verification steps in your CIP if the bank "has a reasonable belief that it knows the true identity of the person." "Reasonable belief" doesn't leave a lot of room for individual interpretation. Your CIP should specify what constitutes "reasonable belief" at your institution, and why it does so.

I should have added that the most recent FinCEN Q&A on CIP requirements (found HERE) indicates that in such circumstances, you are not required to obtain the TIN for purposes of your CIP (search for the second instance of "taxpayer identification"). Again, you must have a "reasonable belief" that you know who your customer is.

As you've suggested, however, your bank's CIP can require that a TIN be obtained. In that case, the regulation requires that your CIP be adhered to.