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#278466 - 11/22/04 07:09 PM Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Tron Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 34
Who else thought that was tragic, yet hilarious? Ron Artest needs a leash

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#278467 - 11/22/04 07:10 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bengals Fan Offline
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Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
I'm sorry, but the FANS needed a leash.

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#278468 - 11/22/04 07:21 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

i do believe it was Ron Artest who first jumped up into the stands and hit some random guy while the guy who actually threw the drink at him sat there and watched

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#278469 - 11/22/04 07:23 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

i think his suspension is fair. he should be the more responsible party in this and wasn't. he was totally out of line jumping into the stands. marc jackson should be gone too because he definitely should not have been in the stands. he was not provoked.
ben wallace should know that when you come thru the paint, you're gonna get bumped. that is part of the game. he should be suspended more games.
the fans should be embarrassed. they are taking heckling to a whole new level.
after this, they will most likely put a net or something around the court to prevent this.

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#278470 - 11/22/04 07:25 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Dan Persfull Offline
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Dan Persfull
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Posts: 47,517
Bloomington, IN
Quote:

I'm sorry, but the FANS needed a leash.




I agree. I only saw replays and the ones I've seen so far does not show what caused him to go in the stands, but the fans that came out on the floor confronting him deserves what they got.

All the players involved deserved suspensions - but to dish out the suspensions they did for the Pacer players were unfair. Agree players should show restraint, but if they are being physically attacked, then, as far as I'm concerned, they're free to react.

I am not a NBA fan, but if I was and from Detroit, I'd be very ashamed right now.
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The opinions expressed are mine and they are not to be taken as legal advice.

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#278471 - 11/22/04 07:25 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bengals Fan Offline
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Cincinnati, OH
Oh, I'm not saying Artest is innocent, but I am saying that the guys in the stands who were throwing punches were just as guilty. By the way, from what I saw, it looked like Artest went into the stands and pushed the guy and then other fans started a fist fight with him.

As for what to do to prevent this again, there will be no more courtside seats next year.

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#278472 - 11/22/04 07:41 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
thomasj Offline
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Posts: 5,063
Pennsylvania
If someone on the street threw a water bottle at me and called me names and I responded by punching them in the face, I would be in jail..................
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Knowledge is knowing what to say. Wisdom is knowing when to say it.

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#278473 - 11/22/04 07:47 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bartman Offline
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Springfield
Thomas - this isn't over yet. The prosecutor is reviewing tapes.

My view - Artest's foul was unnecessarily hard in a game that had less than a minute to go with a 15-point lead. Wallace's reaction to the foul was dead wrong. Artest's continued taunting was out of line, but sadly typical in the league today. No one has any business throwing things on the court or at the players. Players going into the stands is inexcusable.

There are no winners here.
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Opinions are Bartman's, not those of my employer. "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."

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#278474 - 11/22/04 07:50 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Part blame must be placed on high ticket prices and frustrations of fans over overpaid under-delivering professional athletes like these NBA players.

So, I propose a solution. Let’s call pro basketball a quasi-public financial utility like the banking industry. Then we can regulate it and pass the BRA, the Basketball Reinvestment Act. I’m tired of seeing only rich drunk fat men in the stands. What about everyone else? Make the teams prove they have not only have sold tickets to low/mod income fans as well, but that the new fans actually show up. Moreover, make them develop and promote complex low-ticket price programs (even though they may lose money on them).

Then nothing will change but at least we’ll all feel better. Right? Right?



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#278475 - 11/22/04 07:51 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Thomas - this isn't over yet. The prosecutor is reviewing tapes.

My view - Artest's foul was unnecessarily hard in a game that had less than a minute to go with a 15-point lead. Wallace's reaction to the foul was dead wrong. Artest's continued taunting was out of line, but sadly typical in the league today. No one has any business throwing things on the court or at the players. Players going into the stands is inexcusable.

There are no winners here.




Oh yea, especially today in lawsuit happy America. There are going to be multiple suits filed. The little boy that they showed on sportscenter over and over will file because they made him cry. He will get millions for it and be on "Kids say the darndest things" by next week.
Ron Artest's rap album (that comes out tomorrow, how's that for timing?) will sell millions and he is getting paid from this no matter what. He just asked his coach for time off because he was tired from recording that album.

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#278476 - 11/22/04 07:58 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Any bets on when the law-suits start??
-Buddy Magee

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#278477 - 11/22/04 08:02 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Any bets on when the law-suits start??
-Buddy Magee





they started immediately,lawyers were on the bat-phone calling everyone that was in detroit that nite.

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#278478 - 11/22/04 08:10 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Dan Persfull Offline
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Bloomington, IN
Everything said in the past few threads are exactly why I am not an NBA fan and I will not watch NBA games.

Outside of a few - Jordan, Bird and a couple more - NBA players are the worst role models in professional sports. Jut my opinion.
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The opinions expressed are mine and they are not to be taken as legal advice.

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#278479 - 11/22/04 08:12 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
JacF Offline

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I agree that the fans need to show more restraint, and the ones who willingly threw drinks, food, and punches without provocation should not go unpunished. But Artest failed to realize one very important point in this mess:

He is not a member of the arena security staff or local law enforcement.

It's simply not in the players' jurisdiction to deal with unruly fans. This is very similar to situations at home when one child is misbehaving and another child takes it upon him/herself to mete out the punishment- yes, the other child was wrong for misbehaving in the first place, but it's not your job to punish the behavior. I expect to have to go over this with children from time to time- but adults like Artest should know better. I think the league dealt quite fairly with him.

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#278480 - 11/22/04 08:15 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

This isn't the first time Artest has been in trouble with the league for outlandish behaviour. He has had several suspensions.

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#278481 - 11/22/04 08:16 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bartman Offline
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Springfield
Other tidbits -

Stern said the suspensions could not be staggered, so with Ben Wallace out for 6 games & 3 other Pistons out for one game each (for leaving the bench after Wallace's reaction), Detroit only had 8 players available Sunday night. Three of the 8 were in foul trouble by halftime. The Pistons won by one in the 2nd overtime, after all three fouled out.

Security had been doubled for the game, and there were no incidents reported.

The Pistons next play the Pacers in Indiana. On Christmas Day. On national TV. Hopefully the Pacers fans will show more class - or at least more restraint.

Last thought - does anyone remember Rasheed Wallace's reputation for being a troublemaker / upstart / rotten guy? He wasn't among those fighting, or suspended on Friday. I'd like to think that Artest can turn his reputation around like that.
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Opinions are Bartman's, not those of my employer. "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."

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#278482 - 11/22/04 08:21 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bengals Fan Offline
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Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

If someone on the street threw a water bottle at me and called me names and I responded by punching them in the face, I would be in jail..................




And if you pressed charges for assault, so would they....

It's a two way street.

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#278483 - 11/22/04 08:21 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

rasheed wallace was one of those trying to break it up.

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#278484 - 11/22/04 08:27 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bartman Offline
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Springfield
That's my point - Rasheed is moving in the right direction. Maybe he can serve as a role model for Ron Artest. Certainly, Artest will have some time to think about it...
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Opinions are Bartman's, not those of my employer. "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."

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#278485 - 11/22/04 09:17 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
thomasj Offline
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,063
Pennsylvania
Quote:

Quote:

If someone on the street threw a water bottle at me and called me names and I responded by punching them in the face, I would be in jail..................




And if you pressed charges for assault, so would they....

It's a two way street.




If the police show up with me standing there with a wet spot on my shirt and the other guy is standing there with a broken nose - I bet I would be the only one behind bars...........
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Knowledge is knowing what to say. Wisdom is knowing when to say it.

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#278486 - 11/22/04 09:22 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Sunrider Offline
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Posts: 133
I watched this live, living in Indiana. I dislike Artest personally, but he handled everything very well....up to a point. Ben Wallace shoved Artest after a foul was called. Artest did NOT retalliate (big surprise to me) but sat on the scorer's table talking to a teammate (Jermaine O'Neal I beleive). It was not until the "fan" threw a bear (quickly followed by ice cubes) at Artest's back did he go into the stands. I have no idea what the crowd was saying during the entire game, and I have heard (ESPN Radio) Artest assaulted the wrong person.

"Fans" need to understand that there HAS to be a limit. There has to be a Code of Conduct implicit in the purchase of a ticket to an event that prohibits interferance with the event. Fan involvement with events, sports in particular, is proliferating at a rapid pace. How to stop it? I don't hafve an answer. I will say, in MY opinion, limiting the consumption of alcohol would help. Personally I would like to see stadiums alcohol-free. It will never happen as much of America likes a frosty cold one, and MOST of America can be classified a "good" fans. There is no way to spot the "bad" fans so we should al be made to suffer if it means increased safety. I live with security checks at airports, I can live without a beer for 3 hours. Still, stadium ownership will not eliminate such a heavy stream of income.

Thoughts? Who hates me?
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#278487 - 11/22/04 09:32 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

(Jermaine O'Neal I beleive). It was not until the "fan" threw a bear (quickly followed by ice cubes)
Quote:



The fan threw a bear???? No wonder he charged the guy

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#278488 - 11/22/04 10:30 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
zaibatsu Offline
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Posts: 6,153
One more reason not to watch the NBA. I hope the guy who Artest went after takes him to the cleaners.
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

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#278489 - 11/22/04 10:31 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bengals Fan Offline
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I hope Artest takes the guy who threw the beer, thus causing him to lose millions in salary to the cleaners!

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#278490 - 11/22/04 10:57 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Skunk Boy Offline
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R.I.P. Chief Illiniwek
The line "it all started when he hit me back" does not work.
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We're doing oil changes. Oil changes for EVERYONE!!

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#278491 - 11/22/04 11:48 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
straw Offline
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Quote:

I hope Artest takes the guy who threw the beer, thus causing him to lose millions in salary to the cleaners!




Two wrongs don't make a right. Artest's decision to charge the crowd does not put the responsibility of his lost salary on the crowd.

By the way Michael, how did you like Eli Manning's performance yesterday?

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#278492 - 11/23/04 03:29 AM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
JacF Offline

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Posts: 6,719
PA
Quote:

I hope Artest takes the guy who threw the beer, thus causing him to lose millions in salary to the cleaners!


I know alot of cleaners who could benefit from Artest's millions!

Seriously, the fan should not have thrown the drink, and the arena should suspend him as well. I think we all agree on that point. But the fan did not cause Artest to lose millions in salary. Plenty of athletes have had drinks and worse dumped on them by fans without facing suspensions, fines, or criminal charges. Artest's response cost him his salary.

Remember- I am not responsible for others actions, but I am responsible for my reactions.

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#278493 - 11/23/04 02:28 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Chi Offline
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Chi
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 606
New England
Quote:

By the way Michael, how did you like Eli Manning's performance yesterday?




I can't wait to hear this one....
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#278494 - 11/23/04 04:37 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

I agree that banning alcohol at sporting events is key to fewer incidents. It's usually the fans who come in and get all ****-faced from drinking who cause the problems. Why do so many people think that alcohol belongs everywhere?..that it's impossible to enjoy an event without its presence. Those people should be classified as alcoholics IMO. I work at a big bank and we used to have a bank-wide Christmas party. When the threat of lawsuits from serving alcohol to irresponsible employees became too big of an issue, the bank ceased offering a bar. As a result, a large majority of employees quit attending the Christmas party. Finally, the bank dropped it due to lack of attendance. Sad, sad..........
Last edited by mbguard; 11/23/04 04:43 PM.
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#278495 - 11/23/04 04:51 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Sorry about the naughty word, Mary Beth. Though I don't often use profanity, that's my honest impression of drunk people. Thanks for fixing it for me.

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#278496 - 11/23/04 04:58 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bones Offline
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Land of Enchantment
Quote:

Seriously, the fan should not have thrown the drink, and the arena should suspend him as well. I think we all agree on that point. But the fan did not cause Artest to lose millions in salary. Plenty of athletes have had drinks and worse dumped on them by fans without facing suspensions, fines, or criminal charges. Artest's response cost him his salary.

Remember- I am not responsible for others actions, but I am responsible for my reactions.




I agree with Jac. The fan was wrong but so was Artest. They all need to be held accountable for their actions.

Did anyone catch the Today show interview this morning with Artest. He didn't have one straightforward answer to the interviewer's questions. "Just look at the tape, that will answer your question" was all he could say. Seemed to me his main purpose for the interview was to plug his new CD which he held up for all to see.
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#278497 - 11/23/04 05:06 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bengals Fan Offline
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Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

Quote:

By the way Michael, how did you like Eli Manning's performance yesterday?




I can't wait to hear this one....




Let's see, 17/37 (so he threw more incomplete passes than complete passes)for only 162 yards with 2 interceptions and only 1 touchdown. A 48.1 QB Rating. -1 Yard rushing. 1 unforced fumble.

Sacked only once!?! Wow! Now that is impressive. I take back what I said about his lack of mobility and a sieve of an offensive line.... However, how long will the line hold up? One has to wonder...

By the way, another starter in the NFL was benched this week and he had better stats than Eli.... His name is Kurt Warner....

I stand by my prediction that he will flop. He did not look good out there. Completing less than 50% of your passes and having a QB rating of less than 50% is BAD. Having twice the number of interceptions as you have touchdown passes is BAD....

To me, he still has flop city written all over him...

Most importantly he certainly shouldn't have been the #1 pick in the draft when Big Ben is doing what I knew he could do during the draft. Ben should have been the #1 pick.

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#278498 - 11/23/04 05:09 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
zaibatsu Offline
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MP

Eli had receivers dropping passes. I'd say at least 6.
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

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#278499 - 11/23/04 05:12 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Andy_Z Offline
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Quote:


Outside of a few - Jordan, Bird and a couple more - NBA players are the worst role models in professional sports. Jut my opinion.




You don't think more kids should grow up like Dennis Rodman?
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#278500 - 11/23/04 05:14 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bengals Fan Offline
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Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

MP

Eli had receivers dropping passes. I'd say at least 6.




Every QB has receivers drop passes.... what's your point? Besides, the main butterfinger guy out there was Jeremy Shockey, "the best receiver on the team".

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#278501 - 11/23/04 05:35 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
zaibatsu Offline
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Posts: 6,153
I doubt his brother has had 6 dropped passes during any game this season. My point is that 6 dropped passes is a lot and that he will be a fine QB. I can remember a few other bad rookie seasons: Aikman and Terry Bradshaw to name two.
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

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#278502 - 11/23/04 05:35 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Just to clear up some things, especially the referal about being a fan from Detroit and being ashamed. I live in the Detroit area. Lot's of great things go on here that the press never wants to report because Detroit has this "nasty image" and God forbid all the good things that happen get reported. When we have had championships for the Pistons and the Wings, we've never had a bad incident and hundreds of thousand people have come together for the parades and parties with positive outcomes. The Palace is in Auburen Hills, about 30 miles north of Detroit. Not many Detroiters attend those games. By the way, tickets start at $10.00. One of the guys involved lived in West Bloomfield Hills, it doesn't get much richer around here. You'd be hard pressed to find a home under $500,000 most are in the millions. Oakland County, where the Palace is located has the highest per capita income in Michigan. So most people attending these games have very high incomes and you would think an education. Where that guy was sitting is season tickets only (so I've been told), so this would have been a regular (or perhaps given by a season ticket holder) I don't condon what happened, just please don't stereotype the Detroit area with this bad incident. We work too hard and have many good things happening in the region.

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#278503 - 11/23/04 05:49 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
zaibatsu Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
Quote:

Quote:

MP

Eli had receivers dropping passes. I'd say at least 6.




Every QB has receivers drop passes.... what's your point? Besides, the main butterfinger guy out there was Jeremy Shockey, "the best receiver on the team".




This may make my point better than I could:

0

The number of quarterbacks who earned the NFL's Rookie of the Week award last season.

1

The number of quarterbacks to be named Offensive Rookie of the Year since The Associated Press began handing out the award in 1967. That signal-caller was Dennis Shaw of the Buffalo Bills in 1970.

2

The number of QBs over the past 25 years to win at least seven games in their first NFL season: Marino and Kerry Collins with the Carolina Panthers in 1995.

3

The number of pass attempts by the New England Patriots' Tom Brady during his rookie year in 2000. The following year, he became the starting QB and led the Patriots to the NFL title.

0

The number of snaps taken by Jeff Hostetler in his rookie season in 1984. In 1990, he was the starting QB as the New York Giants won Super Bowl 25.

3

The number of rookie quarterbacks to throw four TD passes in a game during the 1990s (Cade McNown, Chicago Bears, 1999; Plummer, Arizona Cardinals, 1997; Drew Bledsoe, Patriots, 1993).

6

The number of rookie QBs who have started playoff games since the 1970 NFL-AFL merger.

0

The number of rookie quarterbacks who have played in the Super Bowl.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

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#278504 - 11/23/04 06:10 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Chi Offline
Platinum Poster
Chi
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 606
New England
From SI.com writer Don Banks:

"He (Eli Manning) had a shaky first half as the Giants fell behind 14-0, completing just five of 14 passes, for 46 yards, with one interception, one sack and a paltry 15.8 quarterback rating. But he persevered, and behind him, New York (5-5) fought back into a game it desperately needed to keep its flagging playoff hopes alive.

"I knew I had to throw the ball better,'' Manning said of his poor start. "I had to be more accurate.''

In the second half, he was, completing 12 of 23 passes for 116 yards and a touchdown. He finished 17 of 37 for 162 yards on the day, with one touchdown, two interceptions, and a 45.1 rating. But those totals would have been far better had the Giants not dropped at least six catchable balls -- three by tight end Jeremy Shockey -- and Manning's ability to avoid the Atlanta pass rush was a highlight.

Manning took just one sack, for four yards on New York's opening drive. For the Giants, who had seen Warner dumped 24 times in the past four games, it was a vast improvement. Especially since the Falcons entered play with 27 sacks, second most in the NFC.

"I was so concerned with getting the ball out of my hands and not taking the sack, that sometimes I threw the ball too quickly, even before the receiver turned,'' Manning said. "But I knew it was a long game. I knew if I hung in there and made some throws, I'd get my confidence back.''

Manning's growing confidence was obvious after the Giants made it 14-7 late in the third quarter on his 6-yard touchdown toss to Shockey, capping a 16-play, 72-yard scoring drive. For Manning, it was the first touchdown pass of his NFL career. From the looks of things on Sunday, the first of many."

Michael P would like to point to Manning's sloppy play; however, Manning was very promising, showing MASSIVE improvement from the first half to the second half. The odd thing about this game is that few G-Men stepped up to help the Rookie QB.

The greatest blow happened in the second half when the Giants had stopped the Falcons cold. With 5:30 left in the game, it appeared that the Giants would get the ball one more time, with plenty on the clock to comfortably execute a possible 70 yard drive that might win the game for them.

With Michael Vick cornered and heaving a wild pass that was incomplete, Giants' Outside Line Backer Carlos Emmons (51) was penalized with a questionable roughing the passer call, which set up another set of downs for the Falcons, who were able to wind the clock down to 2:00 before punting the ball to the Giants.

In a hurry-up offense, Manning was unable to get the final score in; however, in that situation, what rookie QB could get the job done?

More from the article:

"Nobody was afforded a better vantage point into Manning's all-new world on Sunday than Keith Brooking. Perched just across the line from the Giants rookie, the Falcons' Pro Bowl linebacker liked almost everything he saw. Even when New York and Manning got the ball back at the Giants 26, with 1:52 remaining and the chance to play the hero.

"I was 10 feet from him and I saw the look in his eyes,'' Brooking said. "When he was sitting in that huddle, he didn't have that wide-eyed look. Even though he didn't know what the hell was coming, he was calm the whole time, and that says a lot about the kid. That's what's going to make him good."

Something to think about:

Peyton Manning did not win his first game out either. (A loss to the Miami Dolphins (24-15). Oh, HE ALSO THREW 3 INTs!
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#278505 - 11/23/04 06:44 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Just to clear up some things, especially the referal about being a fan from Detroit and being ashamed. I live in the Detroit area. Lot's of great things go on here that the press never wants to report because Detroit has this "nasty image" and God forbid all the good things that happen get reported.



Face it. Reporters only want to report bad things. And why is that? Because that is what the majority of the public prefers to read about. It is a sad state of affairs for sure.

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#278506 - 11/23/04 07:10 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Why am I (a fan) allowed to yell insults at basketball players, but can't get away with this at a tennis match or a golf tournament? If I did this at work, do you think I'd still be employed? I used to get strange stares when I'd acknowledge the opposing team made a great play. Sportsmanship is a lost value.

I made the decision years ago not to take my son to college/pro sporting events because some ***hole decides he/she want's to repeat every George Carlin word.

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#278507 - 11/23/04 07:12 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

Also, do you think Rasheed (or was it Ben?) Wallce would have hit Artest if the game was within 5 instead of 15 points with 45 seconds to go? Millionaire thugs, that what many of them are.

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#278508 - 11/23/04 07:46 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Bengals Fan Offline
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Cincinnati, OH
Chi, yes, the reporters are saying he looks like he is just like every other rookie. I personally think he won't get any better over time. Only time will tell. So far, it looks like after this game, I'm correct. He had a crappy day with a horrible passer rating and a big L.

Z, Big Ben Roethlisberger. That's all I have to say. He will be the rookie of the year, he just might QB them all the way to the Super Bowl, and he might even win it for the Steelers. Eli is no Big Ben!

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#278509 - 11/23/04 07:57 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
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The point is not Ben. The point is you think Eli will never be a good QB. Isn't that what you said? How Ben plays has nothing to do with that.

You are commenting about a QB after seeing him start one game. You have given no basis whatsoever for your comments. A rookie's first start is no basis for predicting his future. Is he too small to QB in the NFL? Too slow? Is is release wrong? Is he on drugs? Or is there something you saw in his college game that makes him a loser? Or are you full of...

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#278510 - 11/23/04 08:08 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Chi Offline
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Quote:

He had a crappy day with a horrible passer rating and a big L.




How big was that L? Oh yeah, 4 points. Yeah, that's a pretty big L. Get real.

Of course you're going to have a terrible passing rating when your star receivers are DROPPING passes. If you watched the game, you would have seen that all of those dropped passes (a total of 6) were very catchable balls, especially by STAR players (Shockey and Toomer are STAR players). Thus, his passing average would have increased to 23/37 = 62%.

Peyton Manning threw 21/37 in his debut. Interesting.

I also mentioned that Peyton Manning threw 3 INTs in his first game (1 more than Eli). Another interesting fact? Peyton only threw for one touchdown in his debut.

Same as Eli.

Want some more interesting information? Eli's touchdown pass was from the 6 yard line, as was Peyton's, AS WAS their father, Archie Manning, in his debut.

Quote:

Eli is no Big Ben!




Maybe if Eli had the same amount of starts as Big Ben, he might be, but Eli has only played ONE GAME.

Look Michael, please provide us with something that proves Eli will fail long term OTHER THAN your blatant dislike of Eli Manning just because he is "the next big thing".

I would also suggest you find a big pile of crow.
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#278511 - 11/23/04 08:32 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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So far I don't need any crow. Eli is not the superstar he was told he was.

As for why I don't like him, it's more than personal. I've told you once I've told you twice and you aren't listening.

#1: He doesn't make his own decisions well.

#2: He isn't a leader, he needs someone else to do the talking.

#3: He is prone to throw interceptions.

#4: He doesn't have the weapons he needs to be successful.

#5: He was overrated because his last name is Manning.

#6: He will crack under the obscene pressure being put on him to live up to his brother's and his father's legacy.

That's 6 reasons why he could fail. I am calling him out early and saying I think he won't make it. If he does, I'll eat crow. Unfortunately, if he does fail, you will still think he's the best thing since sliced bread.

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#278512 - 11/23/04 08:36 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Chi Offline
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Quote:

Unfortunately, if he does fail, you will still think he's the best thing since sliced bread.




No, I won't. I will call him a bum and tell him to get the hell out of NYC.

I'm a New York fan (Yankees, Giants, Rangers). We are EXCESSIVELY good at doing that.

So far, he hasn't given me any reason to chase him out of NYC.
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#278513 - 11/23/04 08:39 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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Quote:

Quote:

Unfortunately, if he does fail, you will still think he's the best thing since sliced bread.




No, I won't. I will call him a bum and tell him to get the hell out of NYC.

I'm a New York fan (Yankees, Giants, Rangers). We are EXCESSIVELY good at doing that.

So far, he hasn't given me any reason to chase him out of NYC.




You do realize that Warner had a better completion percent, touchdown to interception ratio, and QB Ratio than Eli so far right?

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#278514 - 11/23/04 08:59 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
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You must be talking about his college years Michael because we have seen too little of him to make judgments based on his play. He may be a slow starter like Aikman

Here are his stats in 1989 and 1990

YEAR TEAM G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate

1989 Dallas Cowboys 11 11 293 155 52.9 1749 6.0 75t 9 18 55.7 (9 TDs and 18 INTs)

1990 Dallas Cowboys 15 15 399 226 56.6 2579 6.5 61t 11 18 66.6 (11 TDs and 18 INTs)

1989 Cowboys are 1 - 15

1990 Cowboys are 7 - 9

What about Bradshaw?


Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT

1970 pit | 13 | 83 218 38.1 1410 6.5 6 24 | 1971 pit | 14 | 203 373 54.4 2259 6.1 13 22

Of course, Bradshaw always threw a lot of INTs. In 1970, they were 5 - 9. In 1971, they were 6 - 8.

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#278515 - 11/23/04 09:00 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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Yes, I am talking about his college years and his preseason games. Maybe he's a slow starter like Aikman, but the fact is, #1 pick QBs don't have the luxury of being slow starters.... They get paid too much.

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#278516 - 11/23/04 09:01 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Chi Offline
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Michael, you don't seem to understand that ELI MANNING HAS ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME.

You keep on talking about how Eli Manning will fail in the long term, yet you only seem to be able to talk about how poorly he has done in the short term. The funny thing is, your argument completely falls flat, because if you look at the short term, Manning improved from the 1st half to the 2nd half.

You have no statistics to back your claims up. So far, as a quarterback, he is just as good as his brother was in his first game, and look where Peyton is now. All you talk about is how his "daddy spoke for him" and how "he is overrated".

Funny how you can't turn the same criticisms upon George W. Bush.
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#278517 - 11/23/04 09:01 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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Yeah, and that is why Eli had one sack and Warner had six. Warner will check his first read, and if it isn't there, he wil hold it and hold it and hold and .........

still hold it.

He has been quoted as saying he would rather take the sack than throw the ball away. Well, that helps your completion percentage, but not much else.

Football is not baseball and stats can be very misleading.

MP, this argument will go on for a long time, since you argue his career will stink, not just this season.

Sorry that I asked the loaded question to start this, but I couldn't resist.

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#278518 - 11/23/04 09:02 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
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Quote:

Yes, I am talking about his college years and his preseason games. Maybe he's a slow starter like Aikman, but the fact is, #1 pick QBs don't have the luxury of being slow starters.... They get paid too much.





i agree with michael. i think he is going to be a bust. i hope he does. i definitely don't think he'll even live up to peyton's standards. that dude is on fire.


not everyone is a fast learner, look at bobby boucher.(sp?) the fonz turned him into a great linebacker.

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#278519 - 11/23/04 09:03 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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Quote:

Michael, you don't seem to understand that ELI MANNING HAS ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME.

You keep on talking about how Eli Manning will fail in the long term, yet you only seem to be able to talk about how poorly he has done in the short term. The funny thing is, your argument completely falls flat, because if you look at the short term, Manning improved from the 1st half to the 2nd half.




Actually I'm not looking at just one game, I'm looking at several seasons, the preseason games, AND ONE REAL GAME. You are only looking at one game, I'm looking at the big picture.

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#278520 - 11/23/04 09:04 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
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Quote:

Why am I (a fan) allowed to yell insults at basketball players, but can't get away with this at a tennis match or a golf tournament? If I did this at work, do you think I'd still be employed? I used to get strange stares when I'd acknowledge the opposing team made a great play. Sportsmanship is a lost value.

I made the decision years ago not to take my son to college/pro sporting events because some ***hole decides he/she want's to repeat every George Carlin word.




Amen, brother (sister)!!!
For basketball, it's gonna come down to surrounding the arena with plexi glass same as hockey.

It's still as simple as this. Drunk and/or obnoxious spectators are not allowed at golf tournaments or tennis matches. Other sports ought to adopt the same stance. I'm not saying people should yell for their team. That's the nature of the sport. But security needs to squash all the other nonsense and they need to NOT SERVE ALCOHOL AT SPORTING EVENTS!!!!!!!! Drink a soda or water. Eat popcorn. Have a good time. Don't spoil it for us sober civilized fans.

Yep, sportsmanship is a lost value. I play soccer. When the opposing team scores a goal and the goal was the result of an excellent play, I'm the first to give the players congrats! I get some weird looks when I do that.

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#278521 - 11/23/04 09:16 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Chi Offline
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Quote:

Actually I'm not looking at just one game, I'm looking at several seasons, the preseason games, AND ONE REAL GAME. You are only looking at one game, I'm looking at the big picture.




Thaat makes sense. Because, you know, college football games and pre-season are exactly like regular season NFL games.

Please.

So, if you're using all of these as a measure of success, where are your statistics backing up your claims?
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#278522 - 11/23/04 09:44 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Dan Persfull Offline
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Quote:

Just to clear up some things, especially the referral about being a fan from Detroit and being ashamed.




Anon, I was the one that made the quote about being ashamed. I did not mean that you should be ashamed to be a Detroit fan, but, as a fan, you should be ashamed of the fans behavior to provoke such an incident.

As previously said, and to paraphrase, it's sad that one rotten apple has to spoil the whole barrel.
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#278523 - 11/23/04 10:36 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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Quote:

Quote:

Actually I'm not looking at just one game, I'm looking at several seasons, the preseason games, AND ONE REAL GAME. You are only looking at one game, I'm looking at the big picture.




Thaat makes sense. Because, you know, college football games and pre-season are exactly like regular season NFL games.

Please.

So, if you're using all of these as a measure of success, where are your statistics backing up your claims?




Actually failing in college is worse than in the NFL. As for stats, I'm basing it on what I saw, if you really want, I'll look up stats after thanksgiving for you, after Eli has another lousy week. You can keep dreaming about him being the best ever!

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#278524 - 11/23/04 10:46 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
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Quote:

Actually failing in college is worse than in the NFL.




Yeah, like that loser Priest Holmes.

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#278525 - 11/23/04 10:54 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
Unregistered

2003 Ole Miss

NAME.........G....ATT...COM...PCT....YDS...YDS/ATT...YDS/G...INT...TD
Eli Manning..13...441...275...62.4...3600....8.2..........276.9....10....29

AWFUL, JUST AWFUL! What were those NFL scouts looking at???

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#278526 - 11/23/04 10:59 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
zaibatsu Offline
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Quote:

You can keep dreaming about him being the best ever




Who said he was the best ever?
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#278527 - 11/24/04 02:07 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Chi Offline
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Quote:

Actually failing in college is worse than in the NFL.




So what happens when you succeed in college to the greatest degree, but fail in the NFL. After all, Ron Dayne won a Heisman, and look what he is doing now.

College performance is not always a good barometer for judging NFL talent. NFL coaches and scouts know MUCH, MUCH more than we do about the game. There's a reason why Eli went first in the draft.

Quote:

You can keep dreaming about him being the best ever!




Best ever? Who said anything about that? We're just talking about Eli being a successful QB in the NFL. After all, Phil Simms wasn't the best ever, but he was a franchise QB who lead the Giants to success.
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#278528 - 11/24/04 03:43 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
zaibatsu Offline
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Michael, your arguments that Eli will not make it in the NFL do not make sense. I sense that you are either an Ole Miss hater or a NY hater and are just talking smack. If it comes true that he does not make a good NFL QB, your prediction will just be dumb luck because nothing you have identified as a problem, this early in a career, has been a good indicator of a NFL QBs sucess in the past.

You may be right on this one just by playing the odds because many top QB draftees don't pan out for a variety of reason that don't become readily apparent until their 3rd or 4th season.
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#278529 - 11/24/04 06:45 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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Z, the arguments are sensible, you just want to believe what you read about him. And it's not dumb luck to stand out against others.

Was it dumb luck when the very first man said the world wasn't flat?

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#278530 - 11/24/04 07:37 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
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Quote:

Z, the arguments are sensible, you just want to believe what you read about him. And it's not dumb luck to stand out against others.

Was it dumb luck when the very first man said the world wasn't flat?




Thanks for telling me what I want. I have not read one word on Eli Manning since he joined the NFL and precious little before that. I have seen him play on TV.

"It is not dumb luck to stand out against others." What does that mean? I just don't think you have made your case. My point has nothing to do with you standing out against others. Have I made a prediction about his future? No. I don't think you or I have enough information to make a prediction. There would be greater upsets in this world than for ELi to prove you right, but when issuing an opinion on a yes/no question, even a blind pig is going to pick the right answer occasionally--without any supporting evidence whatsoever.

Was it dumb luck for the first person who said the world is round? Well, for the first person we have record of saying that the answer is, "no," but he could articulate his evidence that it was round. He was scoffed, ridiculed and punished for this belief. Hey, wanna be ridiculed???

Oh well, contact me in five years or so to tell me you told me so. Until then this is a fruitless argument about future events.

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#278531 - 11/24/04 09:48 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
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I truly believe that if Eli was with the Steelers, and Big Ben with the Giants, the Steelers would still be doing just as well. They are just a better team. As far as Eli being a bust or bad pick, that's just non-sense.

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#278532 - 11/26/04 06:51 PM Re: Pacers/Pistons Brawl
Anonymous
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Why this thread turned into an Eli Manning discussion I'll never know. However, whether Eli will succeed or bust remains to be seen. He will be (fair or not) a product of the system he's in, much like Peyton. What makes Peyton great right now is the time he has to throw. I don't care what your name is, was, or what your father did for a living. If you don't have time throw, you won't be successful or considered great, whatever that means today. Just look at Archie. Great talent, better an average arm, but with no time to throw - not even close to the Hall of Fame.

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