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#300434 - 01/07/05 11:35 PM
Re: This is the end
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 952
Stockton, California
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I too strive to live a spiritual life rather than a religious life. Religion, politics and armpits, everyone has an opinion and they all stink. Ok just kidding. (My dad use to say that) Seriously...I know many people in different faiths that are sincere, passionate, and loyal to their beliefs, yet the end result is the same. To please our God and to do our best to live our lives for HIS glory and HIS honor. So when we stand before HIM - HE can say - Thou art a faithful servant.
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"For with God NOTHING shall be impossible."
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#300435 - 01/07/05 11:39 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
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That is basicly what I am trying to say. I am not a regular at church, but I do keep my faith in God. It shouldn't matter if you believe that God helps you in your time of need or if it is the "Holy Spirit", or if its just luck, All that should matter is that you have and keep the faith of what you believe in.
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#300436 - 01/07/05 11:41 PM
Re: This is the end
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 862
Mexifornia
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Quote:
My problem with religion is just what others have said, each religion seems to feel the need to be "the only right way" and that is so exclusionary (spelling??). Just how I live my life and my opinion, take it or leave it.
Religion in itself is not the problem; it’s practiceners (sp?) of religion who make it exclusionary!
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#300439 - 01/08/05 12:00 AM
Re: This is the end
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 862
Mexifornia
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You are too late KC, "Scholars" on Al Jazeera have been discussing this for a week now, except it's not the terrorists. You would be surprised at the thought process of some of them who have PhD's. I can't imagine that they can sit with straight faces and blame it on America and Israel's testing of nuclear bombs!
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#300440 - 01/08/05 12:00 AM
Re: This is the end
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 888
colorado
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Creditcop, who was that directed toward? I'm not sure who you think should read the book.
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You can never get enough of what you don't need to make you happy.~ Eric Hoffer
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#300442 - 01/08/05 03:28 PM
Re: This is the end
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10K Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,766
Turnpike Exit 10
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tip-toe, tip-toe...
Everyone has a right to believe in whatever and whoever they want. One of the joys of America.
I just happen to agree with someone else's scientific mind.
tip-toe, tip-toe... DevilChick has exited the thread...
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#300443 - 01/10/05 02:57 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
So, let's say I accept and embrace all you say (Alien and Michael P) and all these religions are stating basically the same facts, in different time periods, and in different languages, but basically similar material, what allows you (as Christians) to assume your religion is the only way to go? Why can't the Hinuds be right? Or the Islamic believers? This was always the problem I had growing up in the Christian faith. Everyone else was wrong, but darn it, we were RIGHT! They all believed in a similar God (albeit by different names), they all had certain similar morals embedded in their culture (albeit cultures vary from region to region), they all worshipped through song and verse (albeit in different languages), and they all studied books with similar messages (albeit from different time periods and certain discerning factors)...so what makes one right over the other? Only your belief...and that is what disturbs me the most about organized religion. I think it's wonderful that we live in such a free society, where everyone is allowed to believe (or not believe) in whatever they wish. I just do not think it is right to assume that everyone else is wrong.
Again, I am sure I am going to regret getting involved in this! 
Someone, you should realize that Mahatma Gandhi is almost universally accepted as an icon of how a Christian should live, despite his being a non Christian. Jesus life and words are the Way, the Truth, and the Light, yet he too was not a Christian.
Many, including myself, sometimes forget this. We are human after all, imperfect beings. How you live your life can be just as important as what religion you are.
I will be the first to admit that organized religion can often do as much harm as good, and when religion enters the realm of politics and public action, oftentimes it loses it's focus as imperfect men and women turn it in the wrong direction. Lord knows I myself forget quite often that Christianity is not about converting and fixing imperfect beings, but about helping them to heal and find their place in this world.
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#300445 - 01/10/05 04:02 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Jesus came to seek and save the lost. "Our place" is not in this world, but the next.
It is exactly this that offends so many non-believers. "Our place is not in this world?" How wrong in so many ways. You think you should remove yourself from this world? I say you are completely and totally wrong. Christ came to help others in this world, to find the lost and help them find the Way. He commanded that we prepare a place for Him in our hearts and in our lives. He did not say that we should not be a part of this world. In fact, our place is in this world. It is not in some other world, some other place. It is right here. He will come again, and we must prepare a place for Him.
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#300447 - 01/10/05 05:12 PM
Re: This is the end
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,362
Colorado
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Quote:
"Our place is not in this world?" How wrong in so many ways. You think you should remove yourself from this world? I say you are completely and totally wrong.
I don't know what Bible you are reading, but here's what mine says on the subject:
John 15:18,19
If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 17:14-16
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 Peter 2:10-12
Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
Quote:
He commanded that we prepare a place for Him in our hearts and in our lives.
...
He will come again, and we must prepare a place for Him.
I'd like to see any scriptural basis you have for saying that Christ commanded us to "prepare a place for Him". I believe "preparing a place" in Christ's role:
John 14:1-3
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
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#300450 - 01/10/05 05:26 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Perhaps you should go back just a little to put that in context. It isn't just about being out of this world...
John 13: 12-17
When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place.
“Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them.
“You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them.
John 13:15 "I have set the example , and you should do for each other what I have done for you"
John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Now, if He is coming again, and will receive you unto Himself, that where he is (back here again) you will be also, it does seem that place would be here.
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#300451 - 01/10/05 05:35 PM
Re: This is the end
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,362
Colorado
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Obviously Creditcop meant where we consider to be our citizenship, not where we are physically. If we accept Christ as our personal saviour, we become citizens of heaven, and no longer citizens of this world. That fact colors our whole perspective on how we act and react in this world.
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#300452 - 01/10/05 06:01 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,300
back to my roots
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I am sitting on the sidelines very interested in what I am reading. Even Christians themselves have different interpretations of the Bible: the literalists and those who extrapolate further. And these are people within the same religion! You can appreciate how this affects those outside of the faith. There are many of us who would just as soon believe in our own way, with our own God (or none at all) than sit in a church and be preached to by those who cannot even agree themselves. And again, it all comes back to a book. I understand that you use it as a User's Manual, but it is my opinion that modern-day Christianity would not exist without the Bible (it is obviously more than just a reference guide).
I just don't see the point of joining a religion. I have no desire to tell others they will go to hell if they do not believe how I believe (how self-righteous is that!!). And I'm not even sure that there is such a thing as hell. I do not appreciate others telling me I am a sinner just because I do not follow their life practice. Who/what gives them the right to be so judgmental?! And, I cannot believe in a book that is nothing more than a compilation of stories and history. And don't even get me started on the predictions that the bible makes. There have been a great many philosophers, theologians, mathematicians, politicians, etc. over the history of humanity that have made predictions. Some have proven themselves true, some have not, and none with the particular level of accuracy required to make a believer out of me. I have read the bible cover to cover, several times, (remember I was raised as a good Southern Baptist girl and even dated the pastor's son) and have never found a reason to believe that the Christian's God was the only Way, Truth and Life...I have respect for others's beliefs, now why can't they have respect for mine?
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#300453 - 01/10/05 06:16 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Someone, Of course Christians themselves have different interpretations, that's because we have free will. However, to say that the Catholics, the Lutherans, the liberals, the conservatives, the republicans, the democrats, etc. are all one religion is no different than claiming that Judaism and Christianity, Islam, and Mormanism are all one in the same. Yes, they worship the same God. Yes, they believe many of the same things. However, there are distinct differences, distinct enough to be separate religions bound together by common ties.
Christianity has been around a lot longer than the Bible by the way. It wasn't until well after the religion grew that anything was written down as a collection of stories. The written Word just made it easier, although I do believe that much of the Faith was lost when it became easier.
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#300454 - 01/10/05 06:33 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,300
back to my roots
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Quote:
However, to say that the Catholics, the Lutherans, the liberals, the conservatives, the republicans, the democrats, etc. are all one religion is no different than claiming that Judaism and Christianity, Islam, and Mormanism are all one in the same. Yes, they worship the same God. Yes, they believe many of the same things. However, there are distinct differences, distinct enough to be separate religions bound together by common ties.
So, if you are saying that you all believe in the same God, why do each of you proclaim superiority in your particular corner of faithdom? Just because you have Jesus? (I am assuming this must be your primary disctinction or else Christianity would not have any individuality). What about the Muslims and Mohammed? Or Mormonism and Joseph Smith?
I guess I just keep coming back to a major sticking point for myself and others that I know who shy away from religion: they are basically all the same, same God, same key figures, same history, and yet all killing and persecuting each other in the name of their God. It just seems so frivolous to me. As humans, wouldn't our time be better spent helping one another, showing love and kindness to all we meet, than to argue who's got the right version of God? And who are any of us to tell someone else ( ) that they are wrong? Seems like the pot calling the kettle black. I always felt that way growing up in the church, and still feel it to this day.
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Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan
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#300455 - 01/10/05 06:42 PM
Re: This is the end
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 952
Stockton, California
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I was born and raised Independent Fundimental Bible Believing Baptist -whew long title? yeah that's what I say. Anyhow...growing up I was raised to believe that we were the ONLY ones that had the truth, we were the ONLY ones that were truly saved and born-again. I moved away from that church, environment etc. While I am thankful that I have few scars in my life due to my upbringing I am even more greatful that I have learned for myself that there are more important things in life than proclaiming you are right and everyone else is wrong. While I may personally disagree with aspects within the different religions I do not think for one instance that individuals within that religion aren't sincere about their worship and doing their best to serve God with all their heart and soul. I wish more people would dedicate their lives to helping others and serving God rathan than dedicating their life to sitting back and judging everyone that does not fit their mold! I have always wondered - Christians are "suppose" to be the most loving, forgiving people - however, from what I've lived with and seen they are also the most judgemental people. What is about casting the first stone? Or getting the mote out of your own eye?
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#300456 - 01/10/05 07:34 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,184
All over the map.
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Quote:
So, if you are saying that you all believe in the same God, why do each of you proclaim superiority in your particular corner of faithdom?
I don't feel that I am superior to anybody who has a different belief. My personal feeling is that as long as it is a Christ centered church then it's great. And as far as killing in the name of GOD, that's ridiculous. People can claim whatever reason they want, but that doesn't mean that's what GOD wanted. (Andrea Yates said Satan told her to drown her kids.)
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#300457 - 01/10/05 07:43 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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SE, it seems you are stuck on one of the same major issues that turned me away from god when I was younger, and before I found a personal relationship with Him. When religion becomes political, when the institution of the church becomes more important and more active than the heart of the Church, religion suffers. Politicians, activists, and psychopaths have all called out swearing that God wants them to do things. That's not what religion is about at all.
As a young teenager, I had a close friend who was molested by a priest. Rather than blame the priest, or the individual church, I blamed God, turned my back on the church, and in fact spoke out and argued quite effectively that there could be no god at all. After studying religion in college, and seeing all the wonderous things which chaos theories could not explain, I came to believe that there was indeed some higher power, someone or some thing that made the universe and cared for it. As an agnostic, I knew I could never understand the infinite and the infalible being as finite and failable as a man is. It wasn't until my life fell apart and I cried out for God and Christ to save me, to help me right the ship that was my wrecked life that I found what Christianity and what being a servant of Christ was all about. It's not about what building or what denomination you worship in. In fact, the entire idea of multiple denominations is the antithesis of what Christ asked of us. It is the opposite of what being a Christian is truely all about. It is about how one lives their life in the joy of servitude. Yes, serving one's fellow man and serving Christ is both a burden and a source of great joy.
Noone will ever convince you that He wants to be a part of your life, that's where faith comes in. Even those who have a hard time believing, but take a chance can find joy and salvation.
Why does each group of believers proclaim that they are superior to others or "the only right way"? Because unlike Christ, we are imperfect beings who make mistakes. We don't know any better!
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#300458 - 01/10/05 07:47 PM
Re: This is the end
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,300
back to my roots
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But Elena, please understand that the persons who represent organized religion to those of us who do not share those beliefs, make it seem rather vile and judgmental. And I am not just speaking of the atrocities of yesteryear either. To this day there are still examples around the world of religious killing and persecutions. I think it is highly understandable why there are so many of us that would rather not associate ourselves with this sort of behavior. Now one could extrapolate that last sentence further for example, why would I, as a White woman, want to link myself to other White people after all the horrid things they have done? And the answer is...I don't. It is unfortunate that I must be labeled at all but, upon visual observation (hell, I am so White I glow in the dark) one can tell that I am White. Religious persons, on the other hand, love to shout it from the rooftops, or at least discuss it as often as possible, especially within earshot of the non-believers I have witnessed. Getting back to the conversation at hand, although each of you would probably profess that you do not feel you are superior, and you would probably state for the record that you do not judge...each of you thinks that I live my life in sin and that I am errant in my ways. Is that not hypocracy at its best? Is that not self-righteousness?
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Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan
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