Skip to content
GeoDataVision
Thread Options
#1091403 - 12/03/08 10:05 PM Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN
ahanna Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 380
Texas
When opening a deposit account for a customer that presents an ITIN in lieu of a SSN, how do you decide which tax statement to have the customer sign on the signature card (i.e. the W-9 or the W8-BEN)?

It is my understanding we cannot assist the customer in making the resident vs. non-resident alien decision, so do you simply ask them if they are a resident alien and rely on that to execute the W-9? Conversely, if they are an NRA, how do you track the W8-BEN to ensure they sign a new one every 3 years as required?

In the past we have had each customer sign the W-9 statement certifying they are not subject to back-up withholding, but apparently this alone is not sufficient for those customers using an ITIN.
_________________________
In the end, it's all just a bunch of paper....

Return to Top
Deposits and Payments
#1091544 - 12/04/08 01:29 AM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN ahanna
rlcarey Offline
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 79,923
Galveston, TX
"how do you track the W8-BEN to ensure they sign a new one every 3 years as required?"

Well the rest of your question is a somewhat complex issue, but if you have a TIN on the W-8, it does not expire. Otherwise, most core processing systems carry a date for the last completion of the W-8.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top
#1091696 - 12/04/08 03:47 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN ahanna
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
If a customer states he/she is a resident alien, you should ask to see the Resident Alien Card. For an NRA, you would ask for other types of identifying information such as a passport or possibly a visa (if not from a visa-waiver country).
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#1091863 - 12/04/08 06:08 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN BrendaC
rlcarey Offline
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 79,923
Galveston, TX
If a customer states he/she is a resident alien, you should ask to see the Resident Alien Card.

What about a person that passes the substantial presence test? They would not have a Resident Alien Card. Although, it is hard to not confuse IRS regulations with immigration laws.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top
#1092031 - 12/04/08 07:52 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN rlcarey
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
I was never successful in being able to train frontline new account personnel on all the technical alien documentation issues (with the exception of a very few). Turnover for this position is so high that most either promote up through the ranks or leave for greener pastures. We required a Resident Alien that could not provide "normal" ID be referred to a senior branch staff member or compliance for EDD. They knew to ask about residency, TINs, employment authorizations, etc. to validate the RA claim.

I would venture to guess that 90% of those stating they were RAs without a Resident Alien card were not. We found the referral process saved us alot of time. Many left to get their "ID", never to return. And most SSNs when verification was attempted were found to be issued to deceased persons or minors.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#1092305 - 12/05/08 01:23 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN ahanna
nbk2yj2 Offline
Platinum Poster
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 629
Paradise!
This has been my experience from a previous bank.


If a customer (US,NON US,Resident Alien) has an ITIN or ss# these are TINS that should be on the W-9.

A W-8 (certication of foreign status) would be used for Non US persons with no ss#

NON US persons include: People that are residents of their foreign country that are here temporarily: Student, on business, vacation,teacher...most of these will have no TIN. Some may have an ITIN

NON US persons who are in immigrant status:(here more then 183 days) These are people that are no longer a resident of their foreign country. They are here either with an immigrant visa or have been granted asylym. They have applied for residency. They are not a resident alien. These people will have a TIN and a permanent domestic address. The TIN will either be a ss# or ITIN if they can't qualify for a social.

For resident alien we would require 2 forms of ID

One from the primary category:

1. US Health Insurance Card
2. US major credit card (MC,Visa,...)
3. SS Card

Secondary ID:one from this category

1. US Driver's License
2. Passport
3. Resident Alien Card

I know it seems odd that the primary ID was not photo ID but remember the secondary ID that was required is.

Hope this helps

Return to Top
#1092454 - 12/05/08 03:26 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN nbk2yj2
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
There is a place on the W-8BEN to document an SSN or ITIN. Whether you use a W-9 or W-8BEN is driven by the U.S. residency status of the alien. A non-resident alien executes a W-8BEN (which will not expire if a TIN is provided unless his circumstances change) and a resident alien executes a W-9.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#1092495 - 12/05/08 03:51 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN BrendaC
nbk2yj2 Offline
Platinum Poster
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 629
Paradise!
Thanks Brenda,

We were placing the tin on the w-8 at one point. It was changed to requiring it on the w-9 instead. (don't know why) I understand what your saying. Makes perfect sense. The w-8 will not expire if the tin is recorded on it.

Return to Top
#1092868 - 12/05/08 08:29 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN nbk2yj2
ahanna Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 380
Texas
Thanks for all of the helpful comments. I am not very experienced in this area, but based on my conversations with our new accounts personnel our most common situation is a customer that presents an ITIN along with a Texas driver's license and another form of ID acceptable to us (such as an insurance card or utility bill).

Since they have been issued a driver's license, is it always safe to assume they are a resident?
_________________________
In the end, it's all just a bunch of paper....

Return to Top
#1093109 - 12/06/08 04:24 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN ahanna
rlcarey Offline
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 79,923
Galveston, TX
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top
#1093149 - 12/07/08 07:20 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN rlcarey
nbk2yj2 Offline
Platinum Poster
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 629
Paradise!
Ditto

Return to Top
#1095142 - 12/10/08 07:31 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN nbk2yj2
smash Offline
Gold Star
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 331
Texas
Texas people --

Did you know about this or am I the only one living under a rock?

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/LawfulStatusDLID.htm

Return to Top
#1095167 - 12/10/08 07:44 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN smash
ahanna Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 380
Texas
I have heard about that and it will help in the future, but it will be a slow process to implement as all the other individuals still have full use of their licenses and ID cards until they expire.

At least it's a step in the right direction...
_________________________
In the end, it's all just a bunch of paper....

Return to Top
#1153834 - 03/30/09 05:19 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN ahanna
SJB Offline
Diamond Poster
SJB
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,210
California
"NON US persons who are in immigrant status:(here more than 183 days)" - where does the 183 days come from? In looking at the regs and IRS publications, it is 183 days using the formula of counting:
all days in the current year,
plus 1/3 of those in the next prior year,
plus 1/6 of those in the second prior year.

Are CSRs and/or customers actually calculating that when accepting a W-8BEN?

Our problem has been that the supposed-NRA customer puts a US address on the form or we have one on our system and then did not get an explanation for their US address. We are developing an explanation form and have seen the 183 days on other banks' forms, but I don't see where that complies with the IRS rules.

What am I missing this time?
_________________________
My opinions are not legal advice and are worth what you paid for them.

Return to Top
#1154122 - 03/30/09 09:06 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN SJB
smash Offline
Gold Star
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 331
Texas

Return to Top
#1154127 - 03/30/09 09:10 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN smash
smash Offline
Gold Star
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 331
Texas
Also page 3 of the W-8 BEN Instructions, bottom of first column

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf

Return to Top
#1155122 - 03/31/09 10:07 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN smash
SJB Offline
Diamond Poster
SJB
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,210
California
Originally Posted By: smash
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p519.pdf

Page 4


Thanks Smash but that has the 183 days in three years language.

Originally Posted By: smash
Also page 3 of the W-8 BEN Instructions, bottom of first column

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf


That appears to be for broker transactions and barter exchanges.

Does anyone have a W8-BEN explanation letter they would be willing to share?

Thanks,
Steve
_________________________
My opinions are not legal advice and are worth what you paid for them.

Return to Top
#1155146 - 03/31/09 11:57 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN SJB
smash Offline
Gold Star
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 331
Texas
In your post, you asked where does the 183 days come from. The first reference was to answer that question. It comes from the substantial presence test in Pub 519 from IRS. The second was a reference to the definition for non-resident individual as defined in the W-8 BEN instructions for the form, which has nothing to do with broker transactions.

My thought was with these two pieces, you could develop an appropriate letter. Sorry I couldnt give you more than that. Maybe someone else can.

And by the way, no, our CSRs do not calculate anything. Thats the responsibility of the person to know their tax status and we banks have no liability in the matter. Our only liability is in making sure the W8 is not expired.

Return to Top
#1155217 - 04/01/09 12:16 PM Re: Non Resident Aliens & Form W8-BEN SJB
nbk2yj2 Offline
Platinum Poster
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 629
Paradise!
I do i will try to find it. The explanation had to be in the NRAs own words as well. I believe however that the W-8 we used would be considered a substitute W-8. There was some talk of the IRS not accepting digital copies of a substitute W-8 but would accept a digital copy of the original W-8. So before you use a substitute you may want to confirm if this is the case.
Last edited by nbk2yj2; 04/01/09 12:49 PM.
Return to Top

Moderator:  John Burnett