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#1210345 - 06/30/09 08:22 PM CTR - Individual won't give us his social
Big Blue Banker Offline
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We had a local private college bring in over $10,000 in cash from an annual fundraiser. After the deposit was made, the teller tried completing the CTR, but didn't have all the information she needed. She contacted the individual who brought in the cash and he would not give us his social (and he is not a customer of ours). He is adamant about not giving it to us. How do I circumvent inputting his social security number and go ahead and file the CTR. We will file a SAR after I get all of this straightened out...

Thanks!

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#1210358 - 06/30/09 08:30 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Big Blue Banker
David Dickinson Offline
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Fill it out the best you can and write a note filed with the CTR explaining why you don't have it and what happened.

I don't think a SAR is warranted. What criminal act has this person conducted? Refusing to cooperate is not a crime. The teller should have requested the SSN at the time of deposit. This could have been handled much better then.
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#1210359 - 06/30/09 08:31 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Big Blue Banker
BrendaC Offline
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Call your best college contact (high up as you can get) and explain it is required by Federal regulation and there are significant penalties for noncompliance. Do they really want you to call the IRS to find out what other alternatives you have because he won't provide the required info (bluffs sometimes work).
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#1210361 - 06/30/09 08:32 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Big Blue Banker
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I suggest contacting someone higher up at the school, explain what information is needed and why, and ask for their assistance. If the courier is an employee of theirs, this approach typically works.

I'd also recommend following up with your frontline staff and training them to collect the information before processing the transaction. That way, if the person refuses to provide the information, you can refuse the transaction.

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#1210374 - 06/30/09 08:42 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social BrendaC
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David D. - You're right, refusing to cooperate is not a crime. However, it is suspicous, which I believe warrants a Suspicious Activity Report.

Yes, the teller should have requested the SSN at the time of the deposit...however, they didn't.

Also, I e-file and am unaware of a way to "write a note" with my CTR.

BrendaC - Tried to bluff the higher ups...to no avail. They pretty much just said that they can't force this guy to give up his social.
Last edited by Banker Bee; 06/30/09 08:50 PM.
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#1210393 - 06/30/09 08:56 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Big Blue Banker
JacF Offline

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They can't force him to give up his social- but you can force them to give up their account.

Or would that be a bluff, too?

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#1210398 - 06/30/09 09:02 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social JacF
John Burnett Offline
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You can submit a single CTR on paper, along with the cover letter.

For whatever it's worth, take a look at section 103.63:

Quote:
No person shall for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of Sec. 103.22 with respect to such transaction:
(a) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under Sec. 103.22;

(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under Sec. 103.22 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or

(c) Structure (as that term is defined in Sec. 103.11(n) of this part) or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with one or more domestic financial institutions.


Do you suppose that a missing SSN in Section B is considered "material"?
Last edited by John Burnett; 06/30/09 09:02 PM.
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#1210561 - 07/01/09 02:01 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social John Burnett
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A SAR is necessary...
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#1210693 - 07/01/09 04:09 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Elwood P. Dowd
Happy Birthday Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

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I do agree with Ken. Refusing to provide the SSN falls under attempting to evade reporting.
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#1210698 - 07/01/09 04:16 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Kathleen O. Blanchard
BrendaC Offline
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FWIW, I agree. I equate refusal to provide the SSN with changing a transaction at the teller window once learning of the reporting requirement. Both are direct attempts to evade reporting. And if the college couldn't convince him to cooperate (or make me believe they gave it their best effort), I would exit that relationship. It just can't be tolerated.
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#1210702 - 07/01/09 04:25 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social BrendaC
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might the school have this person's SSN that they would be able to provide it to you? If he is an employee or a student, then they should have it. If he's neither an employee nor a student, that makes me wonder why he was ferrying the deposit in the first place.

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#1211057 - 07/02/09 01:39 AM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social JacF
John Burnett Offline
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I don't think you have a reason to close the relationship, although clearly that's your bank's call. It was your teller that created this problem by not getting the needed info up front.
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#1213354 - 07/07/09 02:42 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social John Burnett
David Dickinson Offline
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Originally Posted By: John Burnett
It was your teller that created this problem by not getting the needed info up front.

Exactly! And had the teller asked for it at the proper time, the customer would have provided the SSN or management would have had a talk with the customer and this wouldn't have been as issue. Therefore, (according to the logic of most responders in this thread) teller error leads to suspicious activity by customer? I think this is a FAR reach.

Did you inform the customer you are completing a CTR? If not, how does he know he's evading. Put yourself in his shoes. You said he's not a customer. He completes the transaction and every thing's fine. Then he gets a call from a bank (not his) that informs him they need his SSN. Why? The transaction is done (his thinking). Everyone's paranoid about giving out the SSN these days (rightfully so). So now he's conducting a criminal act?

You can file the SAR, but be sure to state that the teller didn't request this info at the time of the transactions. I'm sure FinCEN won't give a hill of beans about it.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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#1213541 - 07/07/09 05:27 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social David Dickinson
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Could not agree more with you David, SAR seems far reaching in this circumstance. Teller training would be a better course of action.
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#1213549 - 07/07/09 05:36 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Blessed
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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According to statistics published this morning, there were 730,000 SARs filed in 2008.

In none of those filings was the issue of whether law enforcement cared about the specific fact situation relevant to whether filing was required.

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#1213586 - 07/07/09 06:12 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Elwood P. Dowd
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I'm not sure I follow what the point of your comment is Ken, do you feel a SAR should be filed or no?
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#1213608 - 07/07/09 06:27 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social David Dickinson
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Originally Posted By: David Dickinson
Did you inform the customer you are completing a CTR? If not, how does he know he's evading. Put yourself in his shoes. You said he's not a customer. He completes the transaction and every thing's fine. Then he gets a call from a bank (not his) that informs him they need his SSN. Why? The transaction is done (his thinking). Everyone's paranoid about giving out the SSN these days (rightfully so). So now he's conducting a criminal act?


I definitely agree it is going to be a tough sell on the bank to get a SSN later ... but what if you explain the CTR & that it is a criminal act to not provide all the required information & he still refuses? Even provide the brochure ...

I say - once you explain the law & they still refuse ... you file a SAR.
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#1213672 - 07/07/09 07:23 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social WonderWoman
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That is my line of thinking as well. Did the teller drop the ball? Absolutely. Should additional training be conducted? Absolutely. But to me the issue is not how the problem occurred rather there has been a deliberate attempt to prevent accurate CTR filing. I understand completely his reluctance to provide the information before the law is explained. I even understand his wanting to confirm it himself. But if the refusal continues after that point, he is knowingly and willingly contributing to the bank's inability to file a complete and accurate CTR.

Miss America - You will note further up the thread that Ken indicated a SAR is necessary.
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#1213793 - 07/07/09 09:36 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Elwood P. Dowd
David Dickinson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ken_Pegasus
According to statistics published this morning, there were 730,000 SARs filed in 2008.

In none of those filings was the issue of whether law enforcement cared about the specific fact situation relevant to whether filing was required.

I agree Ken. That wasn't my point.
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#1213802 - 07/07/09 09:40 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social BrendaC
David Dickinson Offline
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Originally Posted By: BrendaC
But to me the issue is not how the problem occurred rather there has been a deliberate attempt to prevent accurate CTR filing.

Bee has never said they explained to this person a CTR was required. How can be evading if he doesn't even know why they want the CTR. He has no relationship with this bank yet they call him after that fact and ask him for his SSN. How is that evading?

Quote:
I understand completely his reluctance to provide the information before the law is explained. I even understand his wanting to confirm it himself. But if the refusal continues after that point, he is knowingly and willingly contributing to the bank's inability to file a complete and accurate CTR.

I don't disagree IF the bank tells the customer why the need it. There's a BIG "IF" here that has not been understood. Only assumed.
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#1214112 - 07/08/09 03:40 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social David Dickinson
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Wow, all the experts disagreeing; Don't see that very often. If I were in your shoes at this moment, I'd send my trusty BSA examiner an email and just ask his opinion. Unfortunately,come exam time, that's really all that will matter anyway...
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#1214203 - 07/08/09 04:51 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social David Dickinson
BrendaC Offline
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Agreed, David. My thoughts were definitely based on some assumptions of routine disclosures and best practices. I certainly wouldn't provide my SSN to a stranger over the phone!
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#1214234 - 07/08/09 05:07 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social BrendaC
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This is the way I see it.

The rules are:

No person shall for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of Sec. 103.22 with respect to such transaction:
(a) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under Sec. 103.22;

(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under Sec. 103.22 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or

(c) Structure (as that term is defined in Sec. 103.11(n) of this part) or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with one or more domestic financial institutions.

A report required under Sec. 103.22 is a complete and accurate report. If you have no SSN, the report is neither complete nor accurate. It makes no difference whose fault it is. We all know that sometimes multiple transactions slip through before we discover the CTR threshold has been reached and the CTR is needed. If you blame every one of those on the teller, there is a lot of blame to go around, but that does not solve the problem of getting the accurate CTR filed. The bank's job is to attempt to obtain the information, even if it is after the fact. If the person bringing the money does not cooperate, then they have caused the bank not to file an accurate CTR, not the bank. In that case, a SAR is clearly indicated naming the person bringing the money as the suspect.
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#1214375 - 07/08/09 06:59 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social Retread
David Dickinson Offline
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I stand by my point, this person did not evade a CTR. They brought in >$10,000. They didn't structure the transaction to avoid reporting.

FinCEN has said over and over not to file SAR's defensively. This scenario is exactly that, in my mind: frivolous reporting.
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#1214383 - 07/08/09 07:11 PM Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social David Dickinson
WonderWoman Offline
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Originally Posted By: David Dickinson
I stand by my point, this person did not evade a CTR.


I agree ... but they "(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under Sec. 103.22 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; "


I agree - the whole thing is really a bank error - I agree it's frivolous ... but until they change the law ... I just don't see how we could get around it??? IF we notify the customer of the regulation & consequences & they still don't supply the Material information, then they are violating Sec. 103.22 (b).
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