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#146300 - 01/07/04 04:38 PM Pete Rose
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Ok, somebody had to start a thread about Pete Rose. What does everyone think about him? I really want to wait until I see the interview, and read the article (I'll just read Sports Illustrated, I don't need to spend money on his book).

I see it a number of different ways.
1. He said he didn't feel the punishment fit the crime. That if he had been addicted to drugs that the league would have given him help. But he gambled, and that meant a life sentance.
- I agree, the punishment really does not fit, but he knew the rule. It is baseball's golden rule.
- Also, betting affects the game. He said he never bet against his team, always for his team. This is not bad, cause you should always try to win, but he also knew who would be pitching and the health of his players, so it was a little advantage (but atleast he bet FOR his team).

2. The Hall of Fame, IMHO, should judge the player and how he played, not necessarily the character of the player.

Personally, I think they should let him in the hall of fame. Sure, there can be an asterisk or something that mentions his "delay" into the hall. I don't think that he should be allowed to manage or anything though. He did break "the golden rule", and lied about it for 14 years.
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#146301 - 01/07/04 04:40 PM Re: Pete Rose
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He agreed to the lifetime ban and lied to everyone about his activities for 14 years. No Hall of Fame for him during his lifetime. But let him know that he will be eligible after his lifetime--then let the veterans' committee make the call.
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#146302 - 01/07/04 04:48 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

but at least he bet FOR his team




I don't think that makes it any better. Was he more or less likely to overuse his closer when he had $100,000 riding on the game?

I agree that he should be eligible for the Hall after he dies. That way you afford no accolades to him personally, he never gets to make his speech, but you do recognize his accomplishments on the field.

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#146303 - 01/07/04 05:52 PM Re: Pete Rose
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I am disgusted by his repeated and vehement protestations of innocence over a period of 14 years, only to have him now come out and admit that he was lying the whole time. Plus, of his own volition he agreed to a lifetime ban and now is trying to claim the whole thing is unfair.

He did the crime. Now he wants to weasel out of the time. He strikes me as a world-class narcissist who believes the rules should be bent for him. Bottom line, the situation was "do not gamble in baseball or you may pay a horrible penalty" and now he wants to say "but I'm Charlie Hustle and even though I broke the regulations and then lied repeatedly and claimed I was being persecuted I should still be rewarded". The only thing he should get is a regular public shunning wherever he goes.

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#146304 - 01/07/04 05:55 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

I am disgusted by his repeated and vehement protestations of innocence over a period of 14 years, only to have him now come out and admit that he was lying the whole time.




Hmmm! Are we talking about Pete Rose or Bill Clinton?

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#146305 - 01/07/04 05:56 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

I am disgusted by his repeated and vehement protestations of innocence over a period of 14 years, only to have him now come out and admit that he was lying the whole time. Plus, of his own volition he agreed to a lifetime ban and now is trying to claim the whole thing is unfair.

He did the crime. Now he wants to weasel out of the time. He strikes me as a world-class narcissist who believes the rules should be bent for him. Bottom line, the situation was "do not gamble in baseball or you may pay a horrible penalty" and now he wants to say "but I'm Charlie Hustle and even though I broke the regulations and then lied repeatedly and claimed I was being persecuted I should still be rewarded". The only thing he should get is a regular public shunning wherever he goes.




Well said!!!! While Pete's athletic abilities should one day be recognized, his moral caliber should be inspected right now.
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#146306 - 01/07/04 06:04 PM Re: Pete Rose
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I believe in forgiveness and I think he should be forgiven. However, forgiveness does not also mean a return to a former status. There are penalties for our actions.

RANT RANT RANT

I heard a little of the interview and he used that word used by so many other malfeasors: "MISTAKE." "I made a mistake." NO, NO, NO!!! This is a misteak.

A mistake would be aiming your hammer at the tent-stake and hitting the tent-stake-holder instead. It is not a mistake for the hammer wielder to decide to hit the holder of the tent stake with the hammer--that is an intentional act and should be characterized as such. Another mistake may have been made by the holder in trusting the hammer wielder.

If I ever here "mistakes were made" again in these instances, I think I will...well...I can't think of what I'll do, but it won't be by mistake.
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#146307 - 01/07/04 06:14 PM Re: Pete Rose
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I think that Pete Rose should be allowed in the Hall of Fame about 80 years after they let Shoeless Joe Jackson into the Hall. From everything that I know, Jackson was possibly innocent or at least didn't throw off his performance to throw the Black Sox series.
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#146308 - 01/07/04 07:47 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

I believe in forgiveness and I think he should be forgiven. However, forgiveness does not also mean a return to a former status. There are penalties for our actions.





Well said Z. That's what I try to teach my kids (and realize myself).
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#146309 - 01/07/04 08:15 PM Re: Pete Rose
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I don't think he should have been punished at all. Had he bet against his team then lost, there may have been some controversy. But he bet for his team then tried to win. (Can't remember if his team won or lost now)

Why is it that any person, of legal age, can go to Vegas and bet on anything in the world, but just because youíre a coach you can't bet on baseball?

I agree he should not have lied about it, but come on people get over yourselves.

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#146310 - 01/07/04 08:21 PM Re: Pete Rose
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All over the map.
Quote:

I don't think he should have been punished at all. Had he bet against his team then lost, there may have been some controversy. But he bet for his team then tried to win. (Can't remember if his team won or lost now)

Why is it that any person, of legal age, can go to Vegas and bet on anything in the world, but just because youíre a coach you can't bet on baseball?

I agree he should not have lied about it, but come on people get over yourselves.





I don't disagree with you, in that you can go to Vegas and gamble, but he knew what he was doing was wrong. I don't understand some of the ridiculously low speedlimits in some of the rural areas, but I know if I choose to do 70 in a 50, I'm taking a chance on a ticket. I have to plead ignorance on the rules that he broke, cuz until CubDave came along, I never watched a game in my life. (Thanks Dave, I owe you for that!) But apparently he knew, or he wouldn't have denied it for so long.
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#146311 - 01/07/04 08:25 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

I don't understand some of the ridiculously low speedlimits in some of the rural areas, but I know if I choose to do 70 in a 50, I'm taking a chance on a ticket.




Do you feel that you should lose your license for life because you were going 70 in a 50 zone?

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#146312 - 01/07/04 08:33 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Good point

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#146313 - 01/07/04 08:39 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

Why is it that any person, of legal age, can go to Vegas and bet on anything in the world, but just because youíre a coach you can't bet on baseball?




Because other people betting on baseball does not affect the integrity of the sport.

Don't you agree that baseball is free to set their rules and that their employees/players must abide by those rules or suffer the stated consequences. More importantly, he should be punished because Pete Rose: 1. agree to not bet on baseball when he became a player; 2. agreed to not bet on baseball when he became a coach; and 3. agreed to a lifetime ban when he got caught.

That is why he could not bet on baseball. And he knew that. And he knew the consequences. Regardless of the logic of the rule (which I think is logical), it was his employer's rule and he violated it.

Get over yourself! (Ray?)
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#146314 - 01/07/04 08:47 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

I don't think he should have been punished at all.




I am shocked that anyone can believe this! The most valuable asset baseball has is its integrity. Whether you are Ted Williams playing a double-header on the last day of the season despite the fact it risks your .400 season, or the manager of a last place team playing to win during the last series of the season against an opponent in a pennant race, baseball has always held the integrity of the game above all. Pete Rose knew the rules, knew the consequences (they're posted in the clubhouse in every ballpark), and violated them anyway. His offense is a stain not just on himself, but on the game.

BTW - I never liked his whole "hustle" schtick of sprinting to first base after a walk, because it looked to me like he was trying to show up other players. I wish he had pulled a muscle on one of those sprints.

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#146315 - 01/07/04 08:51 PM Re: Pete Rose
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I don't disagree that he should not be punished for breaking the rules. I do disagree that the rules are in place to begin with. I understand that they are there so players are not tempted to compromise their integrity. If you can't trust your player's integrity then you need to reevaluate who you allow to play.

The Pete Rose problem is that he has already been banned from playing or coaching baseball for life. Why should he not be let into the Hall of Fame? If I remember correctly there are a few corked bats in there already.

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#146316 - 01/07/04 08:59 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

His offense is a stain not just on himself, but on the game.




Wow. I would go as far as to it was a stain on the game. The American people are intelligent, despite what I've seen during audits, to differentiate between the actions of an individual and that of an entire sport.

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#146317 - 01/07/04 09:09 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

I don't think he should have been punished at all. Had he bet against his team then lost, there may have been some controversy.

I agree he should not have lied about it, but come on people get over yourselves.




Quote:

I don't disagree that he should not be punished for breaking the rules. I do disagree that the rules are in place to begin with.




I can't follow all this - are you changing your opinion? Also, I don't understand the double negative in the second post - do you agree that he should be punished or are you in disagreement?

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#146318 - 01/07/04 09:17 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Sorry, ending a long day.

Things I agree with:
-Break the rules, be punished.

Things I don't agree with:
-The fact that the "no gambling" rules exist.
-Not being allowed to be in the Hall of Fame, even though you've earned it.
-Lying about gambling.

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#146319 - 01/07/04 09:21 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Pete got to play the game he loved, made more money in a year than most of us make in a lifetime, lied about almost everything, and then thinks saving he is sorry wipes the plate clean. I think his timing sucked, taking the attention away from two worthy Hall of Famers in ECK and Molitor. Funny that his book came out the same time. I think he is a desperate man, for money and desperate to try to get into the Hall for his legacy. There are some folks in the Hall that certainly weren't the best citizens, but Pete knew the rules. He agreed with the punishment, now he must live with it. Shoeless Joe never even got his fighting chance, why should Rose.

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#146320 - 01/07/04 09:24 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

I think he is a desperate man, for money


Are you suggesting that his annual stint of getting dropped on his head by Kane at some WWE event isn't enough to sustain him financially?

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#146321 - 01/07/04 09:39 PM Re: Pete Rose
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RANT WARNING

Well, the "no gambling" rules exist so that no coach or player takes actions during a game that would help him win his bet. I used to watch pro wrestling. It got real boring, because there are only so many ways to present the same thing. While the matches aren't necessarily scripted move for move, the general direction of the program is. That's what we'd get if we allowed players and coaches of sports to bet on the sports they play. While not scripted, players and coaches would make decisions based upon whether or not they win their bets. I'd rather see Steve Bartman pluck a foul ball out of the air, or a football take a weird bounce and influence the outcome of a game, than watch a game knowing some fat, money grubbing, moron made a decision just because he placed a bet in Vegas. Pete Rose says he didn't bet against the Reds. I don't believe him. He lied for fourteen years. He agreed to his punishment. Now he thinks it unfair. Sure, he earned a spot in the Hall of Fame. His records are there, so his accomplishments have been noted.

I used to enjoy watching baseball. Then we had the strike in the nineties. Now, I don't watch anymore, except maybe during the World Series. I think they need to stick to their guns here. I'm sorry Pete, it's what you agreed to. You can be forgiven, but forgiveness doesn't always mean absence of consequences.
Last edited by DawgFan; 01/07/04 09:51 PM.
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#146322 - 01/07/04 09:55 PM Re: Pete Rose
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How about this for a scenario for managers to stay away from betting on baseball:

Pete Rose bets on his last place team to beat the first place team. The first place team's manager reaches an agreement with Mr. Rose to do what he can to lose the game for a share of the winnings. Its just one out of 162 games--the first place manager thinks he can afford to lose one game for a split of a mega-bucks bet.
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#146323 - 01/07/04 09:58 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Quote:

RANT WARNING

Well, the "no gambling" rules exist so that no coach or player takes actions during a game that would help him win his bet.




I understand that, but let me reiterate what I said earlier.

Quote:

I understand that they are there so players are not tempted to compromise their integrity. If you can't trust your player's integrity then you need to reevaluate who you allow to play.



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#146324 - 01/07/04 10:01 PM Re: Pete Rose
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Are we all auditors? It seems that everybody has a thieves mind, but a saintís heart.

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