Skip to content
GeoDataVision
Thread Options
#148598 - 01/12/04 05:39 PM CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
RFitzpatrick Offline
Gold Star
RFitzpatrick
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 424
Pacific NW
From the CIP FAQ's

2. Can a bank open an account for a U.S. person that does not have a taxpayer identification number?
No, the bank cannot unless the customer has applied for a taxpayer identification number, the bank confirms that the application was filed before the customer opened the account, and the bank obtains the taxpayer identification number within a reasonable period of time after the account is opened. Note, however, that a bank does not need to obtain a taxpayer identification number when opening a new account for a customer that has an existing account, as long as the bank has a reasonable belief that it knows the true identity of the customer. A bank may also open an account for a person who lacks legal capacity with the identifying information, including taxpayer identification number, of an individual who opens an account for that person.


My understanding was that only non-individual entities could open an account with an "applied for" TIN. The FAQ seems to suggest that you could do this for any customer. Although I can't think of any good reasons why an individual would be applying for a TIN, does this seem llike a relaxation of the rule?
_________________________
Liability for taking my advice is limited to the amount you paid for it.

Return to Top
BSA/AML/CIP/OFAC Forum
#148599 - 01/12/04 06:10 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
Ted Dreyer Offline
Diamond Poster
Ted Dreyer
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,245
The comments to the CIP regulation said:

"Treasury and the Agencies have determined that a bank should be afforded more flexibility in situations where a person, including an individual, has applied for, but has not yet received, a taxpayer identification number. Therefore, the final rule states that instead of obtaining a taxpayer identification number from a customer prior to opening an account, the CIP may include procedures for opening an account for a customer (including an individual) that has applied for, but has not received, a taxpayer identification number."

So, the FAQs support the language in the CIP comments.

Return to Top
#148600 - 01/12/04 06:54 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Although I can't think of any good reasons why an individual would be applying for a TIN . . .




It can occur that a foreigner who will be doing some business in the US but does not live here. The foreigner wants to set up an account, perhaps to transact the US activities, and is applying for an ITIN. One possibility?

Return to Top
#148601 - 01/13/04 02:09 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 39,793
Cape Cod
Except that the question was about US persons, a/k/a US citizens.

It's conceivable that a citizen, perhaps a member of a religious sect with a legal exemption from participation in the social security system, and not yet a taxpayer, would not have an SSN. But this person would have to apply for one before opening a deposit account under CIP regulations.
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

Return to Top
#148602 - 01/13/04 05:54 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
Or you could have Grandma establishing an UTMA for that new grandbaby!
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#148603 - 01/13/04 07:04 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
RFitzpatrick Offline
Gold Star
RFitzpatrick
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 424
Pacific NW
Thanks all, but for my area, I think my best choice is to leave the procedure as is and just require it upfront.
_________________________
Liability for taking my advice is limited to the amount you paid for it.

Return to Top
#148604 - 01/13/04 08:18 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
Because we have a number of situations involving new business entities, such as LLCs (and LLCs cannot get an EIN via the internet), we have to have a pending-TIN procedure in place. And I always want to design exception procedures to work with officer approval outside of our normal procedures. An exception always seems to rear its ugly head. Just a thought.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#148605 - 01/15/04 09:58 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
BBoyd Offline
Diamond Poster
BBoyd
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,494
MI
Is there any problem with a non-US citizen getting a SSN for "work purposes only" and using that to open an account?

A branch has a student from Brazil who has one of these and wants to get an ATM/Debit card but they have to have an SSN. She produced a document that said it was for work purposes only....is that acceptable?
_________________________
Opinions are mine and never to be taken as legal advice!

Return to Top
#148606 - 01/15/04 10:04 PM Re: CIP FAQ - Opening an account without a TIN
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
Our policy provides for acceptance of that TIN, along with document (passport) evidencing country of origin.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#148607 - 01/16/04 08:24 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
Anonymous
Unregistered

The CIP must be based on a risk assassment. if you don't mind, can you please share with me an example of risk assesment done by any business area in the bank. I wanted to compare with what I have to ensure that the risk assessment done by my dept is correct. thanks

Return to Top
#148608 - 01/16/04 10:33 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
Send me a private message and I will be happy to share my product line review form. I also believe there are several out on BSA tools.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#148609 - 01/20/04 04:45 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
Anonymous
Unregistered

Hi BrendaC,
how could I send you a private message? Please !!!

Return to Top
#148610 - 01/20/04 05:08 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
Anon,
Click log in at the top of the page, then click "register here." Provide as much or as little personal information as you choose. Afterwards, smoke a cigarette. (It's that much fun!) Then, click on Brenda's screen name. One of your options will be send a private message. Tell her how to get in touch with you. If she responds by private message there will be a small envelope blinking at the top of the page the next time you log in.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#148611 - 01/20/04 06:28 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
Anonymous
Unregistered

thank you

Return to Top
#148612 - 01/21/04 11:22 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
Tisa Offline
Platinum Poster
Tisa
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 938
Do you know the way to ...
Hmm. I was going to try and do a "poll" to ask if anyone was actually opening accounts while waiting for the TIN to be issued, but can't figure out how to do the poll thing... Oh well. Maybe you can't do them in the middle of a thread?

So - is anyone out there actually opening accounts while you're waiting for the TIN to be issued?

If you do, what are your "procedures to confirm that the application was filed before the customer opens the account"?

We do open them (personally, I wish we wouldn't), but we're having an argument with Sales about what constitutes "confirmation" that the TIN has been applied for. Sales wants to just ask the customer what date they applied and have them sign an affidavit. Risk Management/Compliance wants them to provide a copy of the receipt they get when they submit their application to SSA.

The way we're reading the Reg, the burden / liability is on us to prove that the application has been made. We therefore want to cover our assets as thoroughly as possible. Sales sees that as inconvenient and excessive.

Anyone?
_________________________
Just a lowly 1st Year Law Student ("1L"), so don't take anything I say seriously!

Return to Top
#148613 - 01/22/04 01:30 AM Re: CIP-risk assessment
MagicCity Offline

Power Poster
MagicCity
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,003
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
No TIN - No account.

Return to Top
#148614 - 01/22/04 05:02 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
RFitzpatrick Offline
Gold Star
RFitzpatrick
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 424
Pacific NW
My original concern had to do with Individuals, which we are still not going to allow without a TIN. For some businesses and organizations (clubs, leagues, etc) without a TIN, our offices have the SS-4 applications which we will provide and even call or fax in for the customer. We then retain a copy of the SS-4 as documentation that application has been made.
_________________________
Liability for taking my advice is limited to the amount you paid for it.

Return to Top
#148615 - 01/22/04 06:16 PM Re: CIP-risk assessment
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
Yes we open accounts pending a TIN (or possibly without a TIN). Generally they are for a business, but I can envision a situation where we might have a parent or grandparent opening an UTMA for a baby. We also bank some non-resident aliens.

We have appropriate procedures in place to follow up to obtain pending TINs (or close the account) and procedures to document alien status.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top

Moderator:  Andy_Z