Skip to content
BOL Conferences
Thread Options
#1560162 - 06/03/11 02:14 PM CIP for NRAs
BSABecky Offline
100 Club
BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
We have a large manufacturer here in our town and we open many, many accounts for foreign clients. Many of these clients have no permanent address; they simply go wherever this employer sends them and find temporary housing in their new locations. Usually these clients are here for only 3 years, sometimes less.

I having difficulty with the CIP in regards to address. It is my understanding that we MUST have a foreign address on file, which would be their "permanent" address, and then of course an alternate (mailing) address of their US home.

Would the W-8 form that we have on file be sufficient as CIP or would that foreign address need to be retained on our system as their "main" address?

What if they have no real home outside of the US?
_________________________
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Return to Top
BSA/AML/CIP/OFAC Forum
#1560179 - 06/03/11 02:30 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
edAudit Offline
Power Poster
edAudit
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,796
You are here
Would the W-8 form that we have on file be sufficient as CIP or would that foreign address need to be retained on our system as their "main" address?

What you use for CIP would be determined by your policy; however I do not see how a form filled out by your customer could satisfy CIP.


What if they have no real home outside of the US?
Line 4

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf
_________________________
Opinions can be considered as coming from anywhere but my employer.

CAMS


Return to Top
#1560184 - 06/03/11 02:30 PM Re: CIP for NRAs edAudit
BSABecky Offline
100 Club
BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
I've read those instructions a bunch of times and yet I've apparently glazed over the Line 4 section. So, if they are here currently, that address is where they "normally reside", yes?

And, I didn't mean to sound like the form would satisfy ALL CIP, just the address part. Obviously we get their valid ID and other information as usual. smile
_________________________
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Return to Top
#1560202 - 06/03/11 02:44 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
edAudit Offline
Power Poster
edAudit
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,796
You are here
On our system we have the ability to have a "legal" address and a mailing address.

W8 status is for Tax purposes.
If they are working here (other than limited reasons)they should have or should apply for a SS#.

Most of our W8 customers are foriegn travelers or very temp. employees.
We require some form of foriegn Id to show that they are not just tring to get around the SS# requirement.
_________________________
Opinions can be considered as coming from anywhere but my employer.

CAMS


Return to Top
#1560210 - 06/03/11 02:50 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
The W-8BEN would normally have two addresses, one U.S. and one non U.S. The foreign address keeps the IRS happy, but it has no bearing on CIP. Regardless, the form as completed by the customer would not logically serve as a source of verification for either address.

For CIP, just verify their physical address in the U.S.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1560217 - 06/03/11 02:53 PM Re: CIP for NRAs Elwood P. Dowd
BSABecky Offline
100 Club
BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
Thanks; this is what I've thought it should be. I'll make sure we don't have some verbiage to the contrary in our own policies. smile
_________________________
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Return to Top
#1560361 - 06/03/11 04:42 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
BSABecky Offline
100 Club
BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
Another quick question; some of these folks are coming into the area with literally NO housing; they stay in a hotel courtesy of their employer until they find "permanent" housing. This being the case, is it permissible to use the employer's address on the W-8 form until a new address is received?
_________________________
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Return to Top
#1560392 - 06/03/11 05:20 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
BC78a Offline
Gold Star
BC78a
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 311
New York
If I read the instructions correct, it asks for a mailing address and a permanent address. You can use the employer’s address as a mailing address not a permanent address.

I know of no NRA who does not have a permanent mailing address in a foreign country (unless they were in the US on a student Visa).

In addition, if they are in the US working for 3 years (as stated in the first post); how are they NRAs?
_________________________
___
Just my opinion for what it is worth

Return to Top
#1560425 - 06/03/11 05:41 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BC78a
BSABecky Offline
100 Club
BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
They work for a company that has locations worldwide. They may have been born/raised in China, but then they got the job, probably in China originally, moved up, and then proceeded to move from location to location globally every few years. Rather than have a mortgage to pay on in their "home" country, they just travel, stay in a country a couple years doing their job, then move on to the next location. I have no idea what their positions are, though I know they are higher paygrade than a factory worker (more like engineers, I guess). So we have many clients that do NOT have a permanent mailing address in a foreign country.

Non-resident aliens... are non-residents. They haven't applied for residency status because they will be gone in a short time.
_________________________
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Return to Top
#1560442 - 06/03/11 06:04 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
edAudit Offline
Power Poster
edAudit
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,796
You are here
Substantial Presence Test

You will be considered a U.S. resident for tax purposes if you meet the substantial presence test for the calendar year. To meet this test, you must be physically present in the United States on at least:

31 days during the current year, and
183 days during the 3-year period that includes the current year and the 2 years immediately before that, counting:
All the days you were present in the current year, and
1/3 of the days you were present in the first year before the current year, and
1/6 of the days you were present in the second year before the current year.
Example:

You were physically present in the United States on 120 days in each of the years 2007, 2008, and 2009. To determine if you meet the substantial presence test for 2009, count the full 120 days of presence in 2009, 40 days in 2008 (1/3 of 120), and 20 days in 2007 (1/6 of 120). Since the total for the 3-year period is 180 days, you are not considered a resident under the substantial presence test for 2009.



http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=96352,00.html
_________________________
Opinions can be considered as coming from anywhere but my employer.

CAMS


Return to Top
#1560517 - 06/03/11 06:43 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
BSA/Becky,

You are making this way harder than it needs to be by trying to connect the W8-BEN to CIP.

CIP requires a physical address, not a permanent address. If the customer is going to live at the Motel 6 for a couple weeks, use that address for CIP. Use it for the W8-BEN too. You are not obligated to track down any subsequent phyiscal address he might have, but it would certainly be a good idea to encourage him to give any more permanent address to you when he gets it.

Assuming he does not want bank correspondence going to the hotel, he can get a P.O. box.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1560710 - 06/04/11 01:22 AM Re: CIP for NRAs Elwood P. Dowd
BSABecky Offline
100 Club
BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
Thanks, Ken; I have a tendency to make things worse than they are. I seem to have this idea that if it's not "their" address, we shouldn't use it. But that's ridiculous if they are staying in a hotel for a bit.

I've been getting push-back from new account people and it's because these clients are going to branches that were a bank we acquired that failed; they had some sort of "deal" with the employer (who is our client) to get these folks set up as quickly as possible with as little as possible. I don't fault them for wanting to help out, as these people have a LOT of money on deposit with us, but obviously we can't ignore the requirements of CIP and such.

Thanks to all of you folks for your help!
_________________________
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Return to Top
#1560711 - 06/04/11 01:29 AM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

10K Club
Kathleen O. Blanchard
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,293
If you go back to the original CIP guidance and FAQs you will see that there are options - they can use a work address, a friend's address, etc. It is supposed to be an address that will help you find them (or the government). Your bank's CIP must allow use of those options of course.
_________________________
Kathleen O. Blanchard, CRCM "Kaybee"
HMDA/CRA Training/Consulting/Mapping
The HMDA Academy
www.kaybeescomplianceinsights.com

Return to Top
#1560716 - 06/04/11 11:40 AM Re: CIP for NRAs Kathleen O. Blanchard
rlcarey Offline
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 83,219
Galveston, TX
"Many of these clients have no permanent address; they simply go wherever this employer sends them and find temporary housing in their new locations."

Almost sounds like human trafficking?
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top
#1560727 - 06/04/11 04:21 PM Re: CIP for NRAs rlcarey
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

10K Club
Kathleen O. Blanchard
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,293
It could except that later in the thread it is stated that these are highly paid engineering type jobs and the employees stay on projects for several years at a time. So, in some situations it could be human trafficking but it also could just be business as usual for engineers who go where the projects are.
_________________________
Kathleen O. Blanchard, CRCM "Kaybee"
HMDA/CRA Training/Consulting/Mapping
The HMDA Academy
www.kaybeescomplianceinsights.com

Return to Top
#1560805 - 06/06/11 02:02 PM Re: CIP for NRAs Kathleen O. Blanchard
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
If the bank is going to be active in marketing to these type transient workers, staff should be well-trained to recognize the difference in the "highly paid engineering type jobs" type of client vs. a quiet, withdrawn individual that could be the victim of a hs/ht ring. Such an individual may not speak English and will likely be accompanied by another person that handles the opening of the account.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

Return to Top
#1561051 - 06/06/11 07:05 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BrendaC
BSABecky Offline
100 Club
BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
Oh, yeah; these clients make more money in a year than I do in 5 or 6. Every last one of them speaks their home language as well as English, and sometimes more. If it's human trafficking, I want to be trafficked! wink

These folks are really nice and do not appear to be withdrawn or forced; none of them even come in with a person from the employer to help handle the account openings. They usually come in wearing their suit pants and button-down shirts with the company logo on them. smile
_________________________
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Return to Top
#1561243 - 06/06/11 10:27 PM Re: CIP for NRAs BSABecky
NewTooBSA Offline
Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 568
Texas
If you are concerned about what address to use, you could always use the employer address as the physical address and as Ken suggested, a PO Box until they are settled for the mailing. I dont know what type of documentation you have for your new accounts, but we have a worksheet that is imaged and I would include an address of where they are living at the time of account opening. Since you are familiar with the corporation and understand the address issue, just document and you should be fine for CIP purposes.

We have accounts for a foreign embassy and all of their employees have to receive their mail at the embassy so that is everyone's mailing address. The physical address where they are staying is indicated on the worksheet.

Return to Top

Moderator:  Andy_Z