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#1629453 - 11/16/11 10:23 PM CTR Help!
BSAChick Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Illinois
I should know this answer, but it is late in the day and I am up to my eyeballs with examiners! (that's my excuse and I am sticking to it smile )

Scenario:

Customer A-indivual cashes a check for $8,500 that was written to him from a business account (he is not the owner)

Customer B-indivual and the wife of customer A cashes a check from their joint account for $4,500. Since it can be assumed customer A benefited from the cashing of the check by customer B from the joint account, should they be aggregated together? If so, would it be Two part I's with conducted on own behalf checked? Or two Part I's completed with customer A's info and conducted on own behalf checked and another section I with customer A's info with Part II filled out with customer B's info?

I appreceiate any help!!!
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#1629457 - 11/16/11 10:35 PM Re: CTR Help! BSAChick
John Burnett Offline
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If you consider that Customer A, as joint owner of the second account, benefits from Customer B's withdrawal, you would complete one Section A entry with Customer A's information, and list the total of $13,000 in Part II item 27. List the account number of the joint account (and the account number of the business account if it is also an account at your bank). Check multiple persons in item 1, and check "conducted on own behalf" in Section B. Provide information on Customer B in Section B.
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#1629612 - 11/17/11 03:42 PM Re: CTR Help! John Burnett
RSC Offline
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How Does customer A benefit from the withdrawal if customer B and customer A's wife go to the casino and spend it all? I can see putting cash into the joint account that you can both benefit but not taking it out.

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#1629639 - 11/17/11 04:00 PM Re: CTR Help! RSC
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

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You read it the way I did at first. I thought Customer B came in to cash a check WITH the wife of Customer A.

After re-reading several times, I saw that perhaps Customer B is an individual who is the wife of Customer A and there was no third party.
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#1629715 - 11/17/11 05:14 PM Re: CTR Help! Kathleen O. Blanchard
RSC Offline
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Thanks Kathleen B for pointing that out but my answer is still the same. Unless they both came in together you still would not report the cash out transaction. Because you do not know where that cash is going. It is only on deposits that you can assume both individuals are benefiting. I just got done listening to Jennifer McCulluogh on this. She does training seminars on CTR filing.

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#1629719 - 11/17/11 05:15 PM Re: CTR Help! RSC
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

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I agree with you. Assume on deposits because the funds are going into a joint account and both can access the funds; on withdrawals, aggregate if you have reason to think they will both benefit - such as a statement made.

John essentially said that: "If you consider that Customer A, as joint owner of the second account, benefits from Customer B's withdrawal".

Last edited by Kathleen B; 11/17/11 05:17 PM.
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#1629725 - 11/17/11 05:17 PM Re: CTR Help! RSC
RSC Offline
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Sorry, I misspelled her last name McCollough.

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#1629776 - 11/17/11 06:08 PM Re: CTR Help! RSC
RSC Offline
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I agree with you Kathleen B. The statement by BSAChick "Since it can be assumed customer A benefited from the cashing of the check" is what I am trying to point out. I was not sure if BSAChick assumed customer A benefited, or if they know for sure that customer A benefited. Such as a statement being made.

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#1629778 - 11/17/11 06:10 PM Re: CTR Help! RSC
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

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I agree...it can't just be (or normally shouldn't be) "assumed" customer A benefited as they would from a withdrawal.
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#1629799 - 11/17/11 06:27 PM Re: CTR Help! Kathleen O. Blanchard
John Burnett Offline
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As you may have guessed, I was guided by the assumption in the original question. What's not clear is what the assumption is based on. It's my opinion that the "default" assumption in the absence of other information ought to be that the absent joint owner does not benefit from a withdrawal made by one joint owner. I don't believe, however, that it's an opinion that is universally accepted.
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#1629803 - 11/17/11 06:29 PM Re: CTR Help! John Burnett
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

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That was how I read your statement, John. If they had reason to believe that was the situation, then fill the form out as follows.

CTRs can be like SARs, you get into mind reading.
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#1629811 - 11/17/11 06:34 PM Re: CTR Help! Kathleen O. Blanchard
John Burnett Offline
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And sometimes you succumb to "paralysis through analysis."
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#1629846 - 11/17/11 07:08 PM Re: CTR Help! John Burnett
BC78a Offline
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As a general rule, I learned, that for a deposit to a joint account include both parties, for a withdrawal include only the person taking out the funds, unless you have knowledge that it is benefiting both parties.
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