Skip to content
BOL Conferences
Thread Options
#1718533 - 07/10/12 03:35 PM Ken's Comment Letter on CDD
Rangers Fan Offline
Gold Star
Rangers Fan
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 345
Ken-Your comment letter to FinCEN was the BEST one I have ever read!! I laughed so hard (and cheered so much from my office that my partner was laughing too). They have missed the mark on this one seriously. I get that law enforcement wants and needs the info, but let's have the government force the customer to provide them some verifiable info when they create the business entity in the first place and not have everything be a secret and the states just collect the filing fees and be done with them. Would have LOVED to have seen the look on some of their faces when they reade that one. Thank you and Bravo!!

Return to Top
BSA/AML/CIP/OFAC Forum
#1718601 - 07/10/12 05:28 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
FinCEN is holding a public hearing on its ANPRM on this topic on July 31.

http://www.fincen.gov/whatsnew/html/20120709.html
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

Return to Top
#1718612 - 07/10/12 05:50 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
Retread Offline
Power Poster
Retread
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,548
Southeast
Here is a recent article that boost's Ken's well founded belief that states can do better. I can also speak from personal experience that Delaware is not alone.

Delaware Thrives
_________________________
Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason.

Return to Top
#1718637 - 07/10/12 06:22 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
NU Rhules Offline
Gold Star
NU Rhules
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 473
SE, Nebraska
Ken, Thanks. I also noted (maybe I missed them), but few others have bothered to comment. Also read Senator Levin's letter. He is as equally misguided as FinCEN. This is purely a case of the government shirking responsibility. They simply have not thought it through and are dumping on private industry. The document title should be, "Here, fix my problem - or else"

Return to Top
#1718646 - 07/10/12 06:30 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
In a federal form of government with certain rights retained by the states, it is difficult for the central government to get control of some things. This may be one of those things. The UCC grew out of a shared belief by the states that uniformity in state laws would enhance business and commerce. It's hard to make the same argument for compelling states to take action to make beneficial ownership more transparent. An individual state can rightly ask "what's in it for us in [Delaware/Nevada/insert name here]?"
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

Return to Top
#1718654 - 07/10/12 06:37 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
edAudit Offline
Power Poster
edAudit
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,796
You are here
If the government wanted to they can withold federal money to any state that does not comply (see healtcare).
_________________________
Opinions can be considered as coming from anywhere but my employer.

CAMS


Return to Top
#1718688 - 07/10/12 07:45 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
Princess Romeo Offline

Power Poster
Princess Romeo
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,272
Where the heart is
Originally Posted By: Rangers Fan
Ken-Your comment letter to FinCEN was the BEST one I have ever read!! I laughed so hard (and cheered so much from my office that my partner was laughing too). They have missed the mark on this one seriously. I get that law enforcement wants and needs the info, but let's have the government force the customer to provide them some verifiable info when they create the business entity in the first place and not have everything be a secret and the states just collect the filing fees and be done with them. Would have LOVED to have seen the look on some of their faces when they reade that one. Thank you and Bravo!!


Link?
_________________________
CRCM,CAMS
Regulations are a poor substitute for ethics.
Just sayin'

Return to Top
#1718695 - 07/10/12 07:53 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
Skittles Online
10K Club
Skittles
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 13,965
TN
If you follow John's link you can find it.
_________________________
My Opinions Only

Return to Top
#1718697 - 07/10/12 07:54 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD NU Rhules
Rangers Fan Offline
Gold Star
Rangers Fan
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 345
Yeah, I read that one too. Not sure what he took before he wrote that one. I am also not sure if I am more disappointed or just sad that they don't get it any more than they do.

Return to Top
#1718788 - 07/11/12 09:39 AM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Princess Romeo
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
May 4, 2012

This information is offered in response to March 5, 2012 FinCEN request for comment on an ANPRM on Customer Due Diligence Requirements. I am an independent trainer in the banking industry. The opinions expressed are my own. I am not compensated for offering them and do not know if they also reflect the views of my clients or business associates. The time available requires that I comment only on the elements of the ANPRM regarding explicit requirements to identify beneficial owners.

There is no industry debate regarding the fact that the ownership of a U.S. entity should be transparent; law enforcement should be able to identify a legal entity’s beneficial owners. The ANPRM devotes a great deal of verbiage to explaining something that most bankers would acknowledge as desirable.

The state governments that spawn creatures of statute such as corporations and LLCs should obtain this information and require that it be updated routinely. It does not follow that because the states fail to do it then the banks can or should do it.

Banks can certainly ask corporations for a complete list of their shareholders or a shorter list of shareholders that meet any conceivable definition of a “beneficial owner.” They can require an updated list at regular intervals. They can even require that the corporate secretary’s signature on the list be under seal. Shoot, they can “go for the gold” and require that the list be executed under penalties of perjury!

What they cannot do is verify that the information they receive is correct.

Honest people will tell them the truth. Dishonest people will lie. Individuals who establish dummy corporations for the purpose of laundering money are not going to accurately identify their principals simply because a bank requests it. The ANPRM describes the practical and legal equivalent of a customer identification program that omits the portion dealing with documentary or non documentary verification; it is patently worthless.

In order to retain my opinion that FinCEN as an organization is as smart as its employees whom I have met, it was necessary to develop a theory as to why the organization would put forth such a lame idea. Evidence of the apparent impetus is found in the quote offered from a government official who said the lack of beneficial owner information “…not only damages our reputation, but also undermines our efforts to join with foreign counterparts in a global offensive against organized crime and terrorism.” Our reputation? I would have assumed our concerns were on a higher plane.

My conclusion, supported by other observations and references to international standards in the ANPRM, is that this is about nothing but making our FIU look good to its international peers.

My relevant international experience is very limited, but I understand there are many countries where the offices chartering legal entities require the provision and maintenance of owner information for those entities. They make that information available to law enforcement. It is even available to U.S. banks when they open accounts for those same non U.S. entities. Thus, it is may be much easier to identify the beneficial owners of a non U.S. entity than it is to identify the beneficial owners of a corporation charted in the same state where the bank is located.

Requiring U.S. banks to do what is done by governments in other parts of the world and assuming the information they accumulate is correct will not improve our “reputation” in the long term. The weakness in our efforts will eventually become apparent.

FinCEN holds no sway over state governments. It cannot impede what has been described as “the race to the bottom” in determining which states can create the least traceable ownership connections to the entities they sanction. The solution obviously lies with the federal government. I’m aware that efforts are underway there.

However, until the states obtain the information and can provide a source of verification for the information provided to banks, it’s ludicrous to assume banks can accumulate ownership information on which law enforcement could reasonably rely. FinCEN needs to press its case with the federal government and, after it is successful, direct banks to accumulate verifiable information.

As for the rest of the proposal, I note that it repeatedly acknowledges the fact that many banks already have adequate due diligence processes in this area. Accordingly, I simply wonder why a regulation is even necessary. While the ANPRM devotes a number of words to this question, they do not incorporate an explanation. Again, I fear it is all for the sake of international appearances.

Thank you for your consideration.


After I wrote this, someone more knowledgeable of international issues confirmed to me that this ANPRM was indeed born of a U.S. failure to meet certain FATF standards. I have no objection to banks being required to obtain this information, but doing it under circumstances where it cannot be verified holds form above substance; it is simply a waste of time.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1718813 - 07/11/12 12:11 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
ahou Offline
Power Poster
ahou
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,094
Excellent!
_________________________
Opinions are my own and not of my employer.

Return to Top
#1718862 - 07/11/12 01:30 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
P*Q Offline

Power Poster
P*Q
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 8,458
Somewhere
Wow, well done Ken!!!

Return to Top
#1719024 - 07/11/12 04:31 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
P*Q Offline

Power Poster
P*Q
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 8,458
Somewhere
Funny though, I'm trying to read through the Federal Register about it today (the proposal) and my attention keeps straying......DRY reading, just sayin'.......wink

Return to Top
#1719034 - 07/11/12 04:49 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD P*Q
Heather301, CRCM Offline
100 Club
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 105
P*Q - I like you picture... I took my hubby to see Van Halen in Nashville for our Anniversary. They really put on a show! I heard recently that they have since cancelled the tour. I really hate it for the fans that didn't get to see them.
_________________________
Live simply, Love generously, Care deeply, Speak kindly, Leave the rest to God.....

Return to Top
#1719083 - 07/11/12 06:02 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Rangers Fan
BSA all the way Offline
Member
BSA all the way
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Wow! That is perfect Ken!
_________________________
We teach people about the way we want to be treated.

Return to Top
#1719090 - 07/11/12 06:13 PM Re: Ken's Comment Letter on CDD Heather301, CRCM
P*Q Offline

Power Poster
P*Q
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 8,458
Somewhere
Originally Posted By: Heather301
P*Q - I like you picture... I took my hubby to see Van Halen in Nashville for our Anniversary. They really put on a show! I heard recently that they have since cancelled the tour. I really hate it for the fans that didn't get to see them.
Thanks Heather! #1 band! Saw them in Boston in March (my 3rd time with Dave fronting the band) and it was an awesome show!!!! They were supposed to play last Sat. in CT and I was going to get tickets, glad I didn't...... whistle

Return to Top

Moderator:  Andy_Z