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#173011 - 03/26/04 01:20 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Abuse takes many forms, not only physical. If you don't believe that, just talk to any counselor at an abuse shelter. Manipulation and guilt are very discrete forms of abuse.
But on the main topic - I've seen this many times before, and I hope I'm wrong, but I bet that hubby got bored and found a little chiqueta on the side. (OOT business too?) Now, his new friend is very sympathetic, and/or caters to his needs (emotional or physical). He in turn may be trying to cause a break-up as "her fault". Sorry for this line of thinking, but it happens.
Good luck.
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#173012 - 03/26/04 01:57 PM
Re: married life
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
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Before we got married, we had some pre-marital counseling. It was largely a waste of time, but there was one anecdote that we both keyed in on and we have repeated it back to one another several times:
If you go to bed at night and you are almost asleep and you suddenly can't remember whether you locked the back door and it makes you crazy, then get out of bed and go check. Do not delegate the job to your spouse. That is not what spouses are for. At most, you ask your spouse for help in doing something that is important to you.
If he wants the house to be neater, he should pick it up and help the children learn to pick up after themselves, the 5 year old included. If she thinks he does not make enough money then she needs to get a better job or work harder at the one she has.
The theory isn't perfect, but it has resolved a number of differences here in the last 29 years.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.
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#173014 - 03/26/04 02:20 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
This is the only thing we ever fight about in all our years of marriage.
There is no mention anywhere about abuse or that the husband is not loving, or that he's a bad father. In fact, the only thing the original poster says has been an issue relates to his consternation over the purported lack of cleanliness inside the house. None of us know what the home really looks like. Many solutions were offered, including a suggestion to make an attempt to neaten up the place and see how that works. It was also suggested that the husband could be encouraged to equally contribute to cleaning.
Now we have the chip-on-the-shoulder crowd -- the suffragettes -- who immediately diagnose everything in life as not just being the fault of the man, any man, but that there must always be abuse.
I hate work, which is too demanding, and I don't get paid enough. I want to join you and let all of us wallow in our delusions of victimhood. Abuse comes in many forms, and I am a victim, too.
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#173015 - 03/26/04 02:20 PM
Re: married life *DELETED*
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 660
KY
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Post deleted by skye2477
Last edited by skye2477; 03/26/04 03:43 PM.
_________________________
Practice, practice makes perfect,
Perfect is a fault, and in fault lines change
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#173016 - 03/26/04 03:03 PM
Re: married life
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 730
Maine
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Quote:
Quote:
But my guess would be even if she did try this for a month, he would find something else to gripe at her about. And he probably wouldn't show any appreciation, because it was her job in the first place.
Just talk to any woman that has been abused, mentally or physically from her husband. No matter what she does, even if she follows his orders the the letter, he will find a reason to abuse her.
This is complete conjecture. The original post does not make any reference to abuse, nor does any subsequent post even allude to abuse. It's a huge leap to speculate out of thin air that the husband will "find something else to gripe about", "wouldn't show any appreciation", and to state that "No matter what she does...he will find a reason to abuse her".
This is just anti-man gender bias that relates to your own alleged misfortunes; it doesn't reflect anything the original post discusses.
No, the suggestion of abuse didn't just come out of thin air, here. A clean house is a purchaseable commodity; love is not. A clean house is a service provided, not a human interaction. If he bases his "love" for her solely on her providing a specific service, then that love is pretty suspect. Remember, the term used is actually "immaculate," which is pretty extreme. A man who claims that his love is based on her ability to provide an immaculate house, and withholds his love because the house is not immaculate, certainly has the trademarks of a manipulator and abuser.
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#173017 - 03/26/04 03:33 PM
Re: married life
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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I'd recommend deleting your posts about her husband cheating. This person comes here asking for help with a specific problem and we add to them by making her paranoid about him possibly cheating. Come on people, would you really give that kind of advice to a friend. You might think it, you might even ask if your friend suspects it, but would you really tell them that you think he is cheating. This thread has gotten far away from its original intent to help out.
In fact, I am going to delete my original post. It was mostly just sarcasm to prove that she could just as easily make the similar complaints about him. It was not nearly as helpful as other posts--in fact, I am not sure it was helpful at all.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#173018 - 03/26/04 03:40 PM
Re: married life
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 660
KY
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I understand your feeling's Z... But i will say that if this was a friend a: i would have more info, but B: if i suspected that he husband was cheating, yes i would tell her my thoughts... perhaps not a "i think he's at the no tell motel" but perhaps ask her questions that could help her answer the question for herself. why? because if i thought it, if i suspected it or god forbid had proof, i would feel disloyal and a lier to my friend for not telling her or him. and i fell that while we might be the ones to broach the idea in a verbal form, i think she may have thought about it long before we mentioned it.
_________________________
Practice, practice makes perfect,
Perfect is a fault, and in fault lines change
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#173019 - 03/26/04 03:52 PM
Re: married life
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10K Club
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 13,965
TN
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Thank you Z. I've been tempted to insert those very same comments, but felt a little squeamish about doing so.
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My Opinions Only
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#173020 - 03/26/04 04:01 PM
Re: married life
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Skye, I think you made my point for me. Ask questions. But no one here did that. Instead, they told this poor anon that they think he is cheating. Just what she needed. It may be true, but it was premature to say it and improper to suggest it without more information. I too would not betray a friend, but I would ask questions such that actually saying it would not be necessary. I just thought that the posts saying "I know better than you what's going on--he's cheating" were a misguided. I am sure no one meant any harm, but it would have been better in the form of a question.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#173021 - 03/26/04 04:21 PM
Re: married life
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 660
KY
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well said. I do think that this mode of communications can make it seem difficult to ask questions, or perhaps we get complacent in the "free form" of posting, and sometimes act a bit more harshly than we would in more direct conversation.
_________________________
Practice, practice makes perfect,
Perfect is a fault, and in fault lines change
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#173022 - 03/26/04 04:27 PM
Re: married life
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
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A few days ago, in a different forum, someone went on a self described "rant" about how hard it was to keep a BOL thread on track. I think Zaibatsu is just pointing out that's what's happening here. The poster did not ask for speculation based on facts she did not include. She only asked for help...
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.
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#173023 - 03/26/04 04:36 PM
Re: married life
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Ken, some threads lend themselves to various tracks. Assuming anon's original post is true, this is not one of those threads.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#173024 - 03/26/04 04:42 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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So to sum up the solution, you should leave the bum, meet a nice woman, gain weight, move together to Northampton, MA, where you can live happily ever after with no dust mops and no requirements to ever have to clean or deal with men again -- or their overbearing mothers.
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#173025 - 03/26/04 05:01 PM
Re: married life
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,454
metsuretsu
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Quote:
I think this has been an intersting study into banker's views of men and women's roles. I'll be honest and say i'm amoung some of the young ones around here, .... but what upsets me, not only here (i guess less here since i tend to like you guys) but here at my work, is the number of people who believe that i (not just their wives, heck that's their deal) am not worthy of a lending position because i am female, that i should become a stay at home mom when i have kids, that i should be happy in postion i have because it's a woman's job...
Hope I didn't offend you Skye, or anyone else for that matter, with my beliefs. I will say this, I never judge others based upon their beliefs or try to force my beliefs upon them. What is right for me, is not necessarily right for you. And just for the record, I don't think you and I are so far apart in age. 
_________________________
I have many opinions; some are good, some are bad, and some don't contradict.
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#173026 - 03/26/04 05:28 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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To the original poster pleaser remember that you and only you make the choices in your life. It is up to you to guide yourself through these trouble times. Don't use someone else's opinion to add validity to what you are feeling. Below is a poem that always reminds me that I do have ultimate say in the direction of my life. Good Luck.
Out of the night that covers me
Black as the pit from pole to pole
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul
In the fell clutch of circumstances
I have not winced nor cried aloud
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloodied, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath & tears
Looms but the horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate
Or how charged with punishments the scroll
I AM THE MASTER OF MY FATE.
I AM THE CAPTAIN OF MY SOUL.
BY: WILLAIM ERNEST HENLEY
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#173027 - 03/26/04 05:34 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
possible rant:
I think this has been an intersting study into banker's views of men and women's roles...i was raised in a liberal household...a man's world...a woman can do and be what ever she wants and that she did not have to stay home and clean the friggin house...but what upsets me, not only here (i guess less here since i tend to like you guys) but here at my work, is the number of people who believe that i (not just their wives, heck that's their deal) am not worthy of a lending position because i am female...that i should become a stay at home mom when i have kids, that i should be happy in postion i have because it's a woman's job... it gets my goad, and i wonder do these people tell their daughters the same things, that they shouldn't be who all they can be because they are a girl, that cleaning the house, cooking the dinner, etc is their job just because? now granted it could be a generational thing, but bringing this back to the origins of the post, no matter what the couple decides to do, it is an example for their child and how they will see the world as they grow... and how do they want them to see it? okay rant over... sorry had to get that out of my system.
This is precisely what Z and Ken are referring to, which is that one's own frustrations, wishes, and setbacks in life are not relative to the very simple request made by the original post.
If you go back and look at the responding posts, you'll see that the responses from the men were more reasoned, more positive, more encouraging and supportive, and contained fewer speculative and derisive comments; while the responses from women tended to be emotional, anger-inducing, derogatory, and almost hurtful toward the original anon.
Hats off to the men.
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#173028 - 03/26/04 05:52 PM
Re: married life
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 660
KY
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i remove myself from the discussion as to respond any other way invites further misdirection from someones orginal question. however i will say this, my obersvations were based on all reponses, and while most posts have been supportive (which is how it is to be), i found it interesting how different persons suggested solutions. forgive me for any hijacking.
_________________________
Practice, practice makes perfect,
Perfect is a fault, and in fault lines change
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#173030 - 03/26/04 06:41 PM
Re: married life
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 862
Mexifornia
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Sound like a couple in late 40’s early 50’s with a 10 year old and a 5 yr old kids. Both in high profile jobs, ambitious and career minded individuals. Let’ see, both are up at 5:00 and return home at 6:00 pm. Trip to the babysitter everyday maybe? Husband not happy with the cleanliness of the house/home and even goes to the extent of saying he does not love the wife because of it? The mom-in-law seem to feature prominently and husband measures home “cleanliness” to his mom’s standard. Fight about home cleanliness going on for 15 years.
Ok, this is from one side only hence none of us are qualified to make conclusions. But, what I would like to do is relate my personal experience. I was a pampered, only son in a family of seven. Did nothing when it came to “chores” – clothes were ironed, food was on the table, plates went away after I finished, bed was made after I left, yada yada yada. Got married and expected the same “standard” to continue. Marriage hit a brick wall after 1 year. Took stock, was in love (still am), sat down and discussed with wife. Fast forward 18 yrs….and thada………..
The new me…. can cook whatever you would like to eat, help with chores, do the house work together on Friday afternoon or Saturday morning, have two kids who help, used to iron kids clothes, taught them when they were ready to do it by themselves, not too heavily on “extra-curricular” activates, have dinner together every night, content with what we make, agreed on work schedules so that I drop off kids to school on way to work and she picks them up from her way back from work, have weekends free for family, never take work home, take a vacation together every year, kept both in-laws out of personal matters, have a content life…
There is nothing you can’t do if you put your heart in it…. It is time to take stock, sit together, no in-law, and no professionals, just the four of you; discuss how you will continue like a happy family that you were once. And remember, those who are motivated only by desire for the fruits of action are miserable, for they are constantly anxious about the results of what they do.
God Bless your marriage.
_________________________
If you have enough, would you know?
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#173031 - 03/26/04 06:50 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Gee, Alien, with your measured, helpful comments, it's too bad you didn't respond earlier. In fact, if all of the other posts are deleted and your's is the only one showing, the original anon might truly make it through if she follows your helpful hints.
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#173033 - 03/26/04 08:32 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I think you are all missing one important point, no-one can be superwoman and get it all done without some help. Take care of yourself, do little bits at a time, slow down and enjoy life. What you need is routines, once you start a bit at a time, it is amazing how everyone pitches in. If he doesn't come around, get rid of him.. Go to www.flylady.net her system really works for us working moms, don't get bogged down in details, start slowly and it is amazing how life gets easier. I have been there and now my whole household is happier. The house stays clean, dinner is always ready, homework is done, the daily sports don't make us come unglued. Believe me with baseball/softball season nearly here, we live at the ballfields. Hang in there life can get easier.
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#173034 - 03/26/04 08:55 PM
Re: married life
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I know that we've talked about the difficulties and stresses that women face each day, but I am a man and I have a big lawn, one that requires a rider mower, and I hate mowing, and my house has mildew on the cedar siding, and the house will need painting, and I read to my kids without missing a time, and I vacuum and clean bathrooms, and I'm trying to build a recreation room and put shelves in the garage, and my car has high mileage. I am up at 4:30 a.m. if I'm going to exercise, and I'm lucky to be in bed before 11:00 p.m. I'm tired, too.
Am I abused? Should I go on Oprah? What I need is a mens group where we can talk about our feelings.
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#173035 - 03/26/04 09:02 PM
Re: married life
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Gold Star
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 473
the Bat Cave
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I have to admit that I didn't take the time to read this entire post - but what I got out of the part that I did read hit home to me. And I have to share this - back in August, my husband severly shattered his leg and was bed ridden for two months, spent the next four months in physical therapy and was off of work a total of six months. During his incapacitated state, he began to notice something - I left around 7:45am and didn't return until sometime around 7:00pm (work, soccer, grocery shopping, etc). Then when I did get home, I never actually just sat with him. When he began to complain, I very sweetly said "but honey, this is how my days are everyday!" He is a changed man. While he helped out a little all along, he now NEVER complains about the state of our home, or the laundry, or dinner. He cooks more than I do, he does more laundry than I do, and he regularly offers to do the grocery shopping. I guess what I'm saying is that often times we expect someone to know what we need instead of just asking them for help. And sometimes, the other person just has to see the need for themselves. Now I'm not advocating that you break your spouses' leg, but HEY! Whatever works - right?
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