Thread Options
#1823060 - 06/12/13 09:12 PM CTR puchase cashiers check in cash
dg Offline
Platinum Poster
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811
Pacific NW
Have a customer who brought in $15,000 to purchase a $14,847.15 Cashiers Check. The remaining went back to the customer. How is this recorded on the CTR?

Return to Top
BSA/AML/CIP/OFAC Forum
#1823375 - 06/13/13 05:52 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
14848 in 21 and 25(d)
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1823455 - 06/13/13 08:09 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
BankRegGuy Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 74
what is used in line 21's account number?

Return to Top
#1823471 - 06/13/13 08:25 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash BankRegGuy
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
Leave it blank. Like a currency exchange, the cash transaction does not show up in an account history.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1823485 - 06/13/13 09:01 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
dg Offline
Platinum Poster
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811
Pacific NW
The Cashiers Checks account number.

Return to Top
#1823527 - 06/13/13 10:44 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
No, you cannot look at your GL account for cashiers checks and identify which items were purchased with cash. Call the Helpline if you are unsure.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1823550 - 06/14/13 01:12 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash Elwood P. Dowd
Cape Codder Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 413
Ken, our Treasurer's Check account is a checking account; we enter that number in the appropriate fields on CTR's and SAR's whenever we have to report the account affected.
_________________________
Nothing difficult is ever easy.

Return to Top
#1823645 - 06/14/13 03:20 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash Cape Codder
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
It reflects cash deposits?
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1823651 - 06/14/13 03:22 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
Dani York, CRCM Offline
Power Poster
Dani York, CRCM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,663
TN
I list the cashier's check account number. Our's is also a checking account.
_________________________
I can't herd the cats anymore, so I just set up the electric fences and let them fry when they stray out of bounds.

Return to Top
#1823666 - 06/14/13 03:34 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash Elwood P. Dowd
Cape Codder Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 413
Originally Posted By: Ken_Pegasus
It reflects cash deposits?


Yes, it works like any other DDA account, and is monitored accordingly.
_________________________
Nothing difficult is ever easy.

Return to Top
#1823669 - 06/14/13 03:37 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash Cape Codder
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
Then that makes sense.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1824327 - 06/17/13 09:54 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
BankRegGuy Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 74
FYI- hotline says to leave line 21 blank.

Return to Top
#1824354 - 06/18/13 08:05 AM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash BankRegGuy
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
Yes, they do. They also say no account number is necessary when a bank reports cashing an official check on the CTR. The problem is, they are not the ones who have to use the CTR to look up a transaction months or years later.

As illustrated above, I generally see no point in noting an account number when a CTR is used to report the purchase of an official check. However, if a bank actually runs its official check sales as it would a deposit account (something outside my experience), the account number would be as relevant and helpful in research as it would be in a deposit transaction.

In connection with cashing an official check, if the account number for an official check is not used on the CTR, it's going to appear to a researcher that the check cashed was not on-us. That could unnecessarily delay the researcher in locating the transaction.

While the account number may not be required in the academic sense, I think a banker with even a pot metal spine could withstand any criticism that it is wrong to include it.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1824380 - 06/18/13 12:54 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash Elwood P. Dowd
Cape Codder Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 413
Originally Posted By: Ken_Pegasus
While the account number may not be required in the academic sense, I think a banker with even a pot metal spine could withstand any criticism that it is wrong to include it.


Thanks for the ongoing education, Ken. Had to look up pot metal; now anticipate many opportunities to utilize the phrase. Messy buckets!
_________________________
Nothing difficult is ever easy.

Return to Top
#1824577 - 06/18/13 04:38 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
devsfan Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,927
NYC
We have always required cash to first be deposited to the customer's account before a debit for a cashier's check or outgoing wire transfer. When using the old CTR we did check the box for negotiable instrument or wire transfer but when we began completing the new CTR we have been checking the box for deposit only. Now with the recently published FAQs we know that we have not been completing the CTRs correctly but there are often differences in the total amount of cash deposited and the cashier's checks or wires. We have a case today where a cash deposit of $15,000 was made and a wire of $14,000 was sent by debiting the account. I presume we would show total cash of $15,000 in Part 2 but show $1,000 in 25a and $14,000 in 25c; would this be correct? In Part 1 I would not want to check Box 3 for Multiple transactions since there was 1 deposit for the $15,000 but would this be correct since we are splitting amounts in 25a and 25c? To me it is easier to only show the $15,000 in 25a since that was the only cash transaction but the FAQs say otherwise. I hope this makes sense and would like any opinions.

Return to Top
#1824586 - 06/18/13 04:48 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash devsfan
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
In candor I read the FAQ more narrowly. Yes, if cash is deposited and the account is debited to pay for a check, they want it reported as the purchase of a check. [Grumble, grumble, gritch, gritch.]

However, if cash is deposited and then the account is debited to purchase a prepaid access device, send a wire, make a loan payment, purchase foreign currency, whatever, I see nothing that suggests it would be reported as anything, but a deposit.

Very clearly, they are attempting to be consistent with that ridiculous guidance on the monetary instrument record retention. What they obviously do not understand is that if you did the research on the deposit of cash to an account you would pretty readily figure out what it was used for; e.g. purchase check, send a wire, ACH debit, whatever. Law enforcement has no more immediate need to "know there was a check" than they do to know anything else.

It would be a public service if you would call the Helpline & ask then let us know. (Be gentle, I'm a little scared about what they will say. wink )
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1824588 - 06/18/13 04:50 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
rlcarey Online
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 77,548
Galveston, TX
Call the helpline and ask them. FinCEN is the one that started this whole mess and they are the only ones that can resolve the problems they have created by their ruling which shows absolutely no comprehensive for the processes or systems used by the people they supposedly regulate.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top
#1824604 - 06/18/13 05:11 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
devsfan Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,927
NYC
I just called and left a message; stay tuned.

Return to Top
#1824701 - 06/18/13 06:32 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
devsfan Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,927
NYC
FinCEN called back and I gave the scenario as desctibed above of $15,000 in cash and a wire for $14,000. First of all she told me that Question #30 in the FAQ does not pertain only to monetary instruments and would also cover wires, prepaid cards, etc. She also told me that it depends on the timing of the transaction or transactions in that if the deposit and purchase of MI or sending of wire occurred at the same time then in my example Part 2 should read total cash of $15,000 and $1,000 in 25a and $14,000 in 25c, but that if the deposit was made early in the day and the wire was sent later the full $15,000 would be shown in 25a. I also asked about checking box 3 for multiple transactions and she said no. In my opinion this really complicates matters since we (back office) must analyze the timing of the different transactions to determine if we show everything as a deposit or if we break it down. I need to chew on this a bit to see how we can comply operationally but wanted to share the info with the world. Feel free to vent, rant, agree, etc.

Return to Top
#1824709 - 06/18/13 06:40 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
rlcarey Online
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 77,548
Galveston, TX
There you have it, it goes back to my original statement. It "shows absolutely no comprehensive for the processes or systems used by the people they supposedly regulate."
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top
#1824716 - 06/18/13 06:49 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

10K Club
Kathleen O. Blanchard
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,277
And would that be the timing of the wire request or when the wire was processed? Ridiculous.
_________________________
Kathleen O. Blanchard, CRCM "Kaybee"
HMDA/CRA Training/Consulting/Mapping
The HMDA Academy
www.kaybeescomplianceinsights.com

Return to Top
#1824722 - 06/18/13 06:56 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
Dani York, CRCM Offline
Power Poster
Dani York, CRCM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,663
TN
Be sure to document who you talked to and their answer within your file for that CTR. I have had the "pleasure" of receiving "guidance" from the helpline before, and after following it, then on a follow-up phone call, a supervisor told me the original answer was wrong. Sometimes the helpline doesn't know its right foot from its left.

Example of conflicting Helpline "guidance":
http://www.bankersonline.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1785455
_________________________
I can't herd the cats anymore, so I just set up the electric fences and let them fry when they stray out of bounds.

Return to Top
#1825983 - 06/21/13 01:29 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash Dani York, CRCM
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
I attempted to get some additional assistance, but that was unsuccessful. So, I resorted to the Helpline. My question was: Focusing on the response to Question 30 on the CTR Q & A, if a customer deposits cash in a reportable amount and then debits the account to conduct any transaction listed in item 27; e.g. make a payment on a loan, send a wire transfer, purchase a prepaid access device etc. is that reportable as the first transaction (deposit) or the second transaction (sending a wire, etc.)?

The answer given did not vary substantially from what devsfan heard: If the deposit was made and the wire was ordered as a part of the same transaction then it would be correctly reported as the purchase of a wire with cash. The same would be true if it was used to purchase a prepaid access device etc. However, if the transactions were not in quick succession, the bank would not be obligated to go back and look for transactions that occurred later in the same business day just because cash was deposited.

Aside from the oddity that the FinCEN CTR should generate this interpretation when the legacy form did not, there are some fatal flaws in this reasoning. However, I don't have the time or inclination to catalog them now. The practical effect is that it will be subject to interpretation by individual field examiners which represents the worst case scenario for everyone.

Again, they are not final because they are right, they are right because they are final. I'm surprised at what they do not understand.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#1826002 - 06/21/13 01:48 PM Re: CTR puchase cashiers check in cash dg
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 39,408
Cape Cod
There are a some bank examiners who started out as bank employees and may have background on how the real world operates. But it appears that most FinCEN staff members have no such connection.
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

Return to Top

Moderator:  Andy_Z