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#1861954 - 10/16/13 06:28 PM SAR or not
rebpeb Offline
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Customer withdraws $9,000 cash and three days later withdraws another $9,000 cash - SAR reportable?

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#1861956 - 10/16/13 06:33 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
edAudit Offline
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Why did the customer W/d $18,000 over 3 days?
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#1861959 - 10/16/13 06:42 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rlcarey Offline
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And what was the source of funds?
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#1861966 - 10/16/13 06:47 PM Re: SAR or not rlcarey
deeb Offline
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Wouldn't two withdrawals just less than the reporting limit be considered structuring, therefore reportable?
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#1861970 - 10/16/13 06:53 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rebpeb Offline
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don't know the reason customer withdrew the funds, only the amounts and dates

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#1861973 - 10/16/13 07:00 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
edAudit Offline
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I would think that we would need additional info prior to filing.

Was the amount in the account for x number of weeks, months, years.

After inquiry with the customer did you find out that customer bought a car for $9,000 and three days later bought a boat, paid an ODA, went to an auction...? ( and did you believe it)
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#1861978 - 10/16/13 07:02 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rlcarey Offline
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Without additional information - file and be done with it. Easier than arguing with a regulator when you have no additional information to support your position of not filing.
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#1861987 - 10/16/13 07:12 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
edAudit Offline
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Would it not be the job of the BSA investigator/analyst/officer to investigate prior to filing?
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#1861999 - 10/16/13 07:21 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rlcarey Offline
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Why - they call the customer - the customer tells them a lie - where does that leave you except still having to file a SAR and having wasted everyone's time.
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#1862006 - 10/16/13 07:28 PM Re: SAR or not rlcarey
edAudit Offline
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Originally Posted By: rlcarey
Why - they call the customer - the customer tells them a lie - where does that leave you except still having to file a SAR and having wasted everyone's time.


If by chance they get an acceptable reason they will not have to do a follow up review in 90 days. Also if they get an unacceptable answer there is more to put into the SAR that may be useful for LE. It also lets the possibly bad customer (if this one is) know that you are on to them on the first attempt and they can take the mess to another bank.
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#1862025 - 10/16/13 07:49 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
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#1862036 - 10/16/13 08:05 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rlcarey Offline
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The article does not translate to the examiner front line and I have found it is not worth the time doing the leg work after the fact, but each bank needs to manage their SAR process the way they see fit.
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#1862072 - 10/16/13 08:40 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
JacF Offline

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I would suggest that "file and be done with it", as an alternative to investigating, is not a responsible way to run a BSA program.

You are correct to find these transactions worthy of SAR consideration. But your next step, as it is with any SAR consideration, is to gather additional information, get as complete a picture as possible, and make your SAR decision based on the entirety of the facts.

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#1862098 - 10/16/13 09:38 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
Kathleen O. Blanchard Offline

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It does make sense to at least try to find out if there is an explanation for the transactions prior to making a decision.

I do believe, however, that the larger a bank the less and less manageable that level of questioning can be. I bank with some large banks. While I know they will contact me re transactions that could be fraudulent on my bill pay or debit or credit cards, I don't expect them to ask me to explain unusual cash deposits or withdrawals that smell of structuring. I do expect them to report such transactions should I be foolish enough to conduct them.
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#1862099 - 10/16/13 09:44 PM Re: SAR or not rlcarey
Xian Ngyuen Offline
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Originally Posted By: rlcarey
Without additional information - file and be done with it. Easier than arguing with a regulator when you have no additional information to support your position of not filing.


admittedly off-topic, but if you replace "file" with "OFAC scan" and "filing" with "OFAC scanning", I don't think you'd give the same advice.

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#1862114 - 10/16/13 10:37 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rlcarey Offline
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Ed- I don't understand. You think that I would support not OFAC scanning? Because if I replace the words, that is what you say I am advocating.

Like I said, you can all do what you want, but I have been involved with enough regulators and enough look back situations to know that the majority of the examiners and their review offices will highly question two $9,000 withdrawals in a three day period regardless of the spin a customer might give you. What logical explanation could a customer provide you after the fact - assuming they will even talk to you about it.

I just cannot in good conscience recommend wasting valuable resources on what the regulators will deem a cut and dried situation.
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#1862119 - 10/17/13 12:24 AM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
edAudit Offline
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Customer could be purchasing items at two separate auctions. If this is his business I would expect to see more but after the 3rd time without inquiry due to some banks policy I would be forced to close the account.
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#1862120 - 10/17/13 01:59 AM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rlcarey Offline
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Bringing cash to an auction is probably in my mind a sure sign of money laundering. Who in their right mind walks around with that type of cash. I have participated in many auctions and cash was never involved, unless you are talking a couple of C notes. Of course you couldn't buy much of a horse for that.
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#1862131 - 10/17/13 11:17 AM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
edAudit Offline
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You are here
http://www.treasury.gov/auctions/irs/payment.html

Form of Payment:
All payments must be by cash, certified check, cashier's or treasurer's check or by a United States postal, bank, express, or telegraph money order. Make check or money order payable to the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Treasury Department.

It would be difficult to pay in other forms if you do not know the dollar amount prior to attending the auction.

I would not think that payment to the IRS for purchases in cash would be considered money laundering by even the most inexperienced regulator.


http://www.treasury.gov/auctions/treasury/gp/bidresults/fy2011/october_2010.shtml

Some items are around the $9,000 mark.
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#1862132 - 10/17/13 11:24 AM Re: SAR or not rlcarey
Xian Ngyuen Offline
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Originally Posted By: rlcarey
Ed- I don't understand. You think that I would support not OFAC scanning? Because if I replace the words, that is what you say I am advocating.


Based on your prior responses to questions like "Do I need to scan the banks in my wire transfers?", I was certain that you would never give a "just scan and be done with it" answer.

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#1862134 - 10/17/13 11:57 AM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
rlcarey Offline
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Keep reading:

Since the Internal Revenue Service can only accept cash or certified funds at their auctions, how can I bring certified funds if I don't know how much the property will sell for, or if I will be the successful bidder?

At single item sales, many bidders will bring a cashier's check made out to themselves, in the amount of their intended bid. In addition, bidders will also bring cash to make up any difference between the amount of the cashier's check and the winning bid. At large lot sales, bidders often bring several cashier's checks made out to themselves to cover multiple possibilities. For example, a bidder may bring one cashier's check for $5,000, two checks for $2,500, and one check for $1,000. Any checks not used can be redeemed at your bank by you. And we usually have the ability to make change to some degree. Of course, other amounts and scenarios may apply.

But, like I said, if that is what you believe and are comfortable not filing and you have not had to deal with regulators on this issue - have at it.
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#1862139 - 10/17/13 12:25 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
edAudit Offline
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While I have seen some customer in the past using bank check method. Most customers I have seen in the past go the cash route. Without asking you will never know is my only point.

One customer who was rarely successful in his bids for construction equipment would withdraw the funds at 9:00 and would be back by 2:00 when if he did not win the bid. This went on for about a year until he gave up on the auctions.

If I simply filed a SAR each time he did this unusual transaction due to bank policy he would be gone as a customer after 180 days.

Since he held many accounts for both his personal and businesses and referred customers to the branch he was a profitable customer.

Many of the car dealer I have dealt with in the past would need to pay in cash (for about a year) until the dealer auction would accept a check from them.
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#1862231 - 10/17/13 03:21 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
From a failed bank auction I purchased some items, I was told the only acceptable method of payment was cash, they would not make change, so bring the exact amount or don't expect anything back...certified check was not an option...was an FDIC auction hosted by a 3rd party (don't recall the company name).

For the question originally asked, not a fan of defensive filing, a question to the customer should come first, then depending on the answer whether to file or not...
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#1862390 - 10/17/13 07:08 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
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We call customers on transactions like this and ask the purpose. If they give that dreaded "none of your ___ business" we file. If they give a purpose that is reasonable, we don't file. If they give a reason that is unverifiable, we file.

Then move on.
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#1862528 - 10/17/13 10:05 PM Re: SAR or not rebpeb
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
seems like we have a hard time with the "move on" portion...haha
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