If I have a HELOC that is determined to be HOEPA, I understand that I must provide the counceling list (no matter if HOEPA or not), but must counceling be completed by the applicant prior to consummation? and if so, only for a 1st time homebuyer or all applicant?

The counseling list requirements on all applications goes into effect in January 2014. The 2013 rules apply to first time home buyers only, is my understanding.

Forgive me for being dense.....let me rephrase HELOC that is HOEPA (after Jan 2014) is provided with counseling notice. Does the HELOC Applicant have to complete the counseling?

My understanding is that if your HELOC is a high-cost mortgage, then the counseling requirement is applicable. I don't see an exception for open-end there. The CFPB's small entity guide provides the negative-amortization counseling is applicable for first time homebuyer on closed-end loans where the loan has negative amortization. This is not applicable on high-cost mortgages as you can't have negative am on a high-cost mortgage.

Yes. Virtually all applicants for a RESPA-covered loan will get the list. And there are two separate requirements for pre-consummation homeowner counseling: (1) any high-cost mortgage transaction as defined in 1026.32 (which now includes junior lien loans and open-end credit); and (2) any first-time mortgage borrower applicant on closed-end loans where the periodic payment may result in negative amortization.

Thank you one and all for your responses. Greatly appreciated and thank god for BOL.

So as I'm reading this thread I am unclear on the 1st time buyer part. When I read the CFPB guide, the negative amortization (1st time buyer) must receive counseling BUT the guide stated "does not apply to consumers who have taken out mortgages before" What does that mean?

Could a person come in and do a refinance that would be high cost and NOT have to do counsling?

My head hurts!
Thanks for any help.

All high cost mortgages require counseling.

1st time home buyer + negative amort. = counseling.

Thank you, the CFPB DID NOT make the guides "easy to understand" in my book.

And this thread isn't helping if you think it appies to first time homebuyers. It's first time borrowers when the periodic payment can result in negative amortization. In essence, if you offer a neg-am loan, you have to ask every applicant for that loan program whether he or she has ever borrowed money on a dwelling before.

Oh yes, that is a distinct difference and I need to remember the specific terminology

I have tripped over that one enough times to have finally learned it -- until next time. ;-)

So am I to understand this post as saying, If the loan requires counseling according to Regulation X Counseling doens't have to be completed, but if counseling is required under Regulation Z for 1st time buyers with neg. am. or a HCML then completion of counseling is required?

RESPA only requires the list of counselors be given, not that counseling actually occurs. The requirements to complete the counseling are all found in Reg. Z, and are as you state.