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#1920969 - 05/07/14 07:59 PM Castle Doctrine: What would you do?
Norman Paperman Offline
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us/missoula-montana-homeowner-shoots-teenager-in-garage.html

MISSOULA, Mont. — Teenagers call it garage hopping. The goal was to sneak into an open garage, steal some beer or other items and slip away into the night. It was dumb and clearly illegal. It was not supposed to be deadly.

Around midnight on April 27, a 17-year-old exchange student from Germany named Diren Dede left the host home where he played Xbox and drained cans of Sprite to set off with a friend through his dark hillside neighborhood. They passed a home whose garage door hung partially open. Using a cellphone for light, Mr. Dede headed in.

Inside the house, motion sensors alerted Markus Kaarma to an intruder’s presence. Two recent burglaries had put Mr. Kaarma and his young family on edge, his lawyer said, and he grabbed a shotgun from the dining room and rushed outside. He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark. Mr. Dede’s body crumpled to the floor.


Keep it civil and intelligent.
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#1920977 - 05/07/14 08:05 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Way, way south.
Really bad idea to go into that house, *REALLY* bad idea, but maybe the guy could have asked questions before blindly firing shots into the dark. Pretty stupid behavior.

Just because it might be legal, doesn't mean it's right.

JMHO.
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#1920983 - 05/07/14 08:09 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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I live in a state where, lets just say I would need to call the police and when after they show up (and bad guy has left)I would get a case number to submit to the insurance company. The insurance co will offer me pennies on the dollar. I will calling them several time with no resolution until I contact the state regulator who after contacting the Insurance would get a better settlement but would not pay for the loss of most of the contents. I would also continue to read about the same issues happening to my neighbors until the twerp grow up and starts committing a more violent crime in which cast the police may start to care and then possibly find him and arrest the bad guy stopping the additional thefts in about 6 or 7 years.
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#1920984 - 05/07/14 08:09 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? MB Guy
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my opinion, the garage is not a house even an attached garage (though mine is detached so in my case it's an easier decision to not shoot someone in my garage)

inside the house is a different story in my mind
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#1920992 - 05/07/14 08:15 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Agree that there's a big difference between someone being in your garage and being in your house.
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#1920997 - 05/07/14 08:18 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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From the linked article
Quote:
Ms. Pflager bought motion sensors and a video camera to track the intruders should they return, and put a purse with some marked belongings inside, so that they could be traced to anyone who stole them. Mr. Ryan said the purse was sitting in the back of the garage and had not been placed there to lure anyone in.

A hairstylist named Felene Sherbondy told the police that Mr. Kaarma had come into the Great Clips salon three days before the shooting and talked about how he had been waiting up with his shotgun for three nights “to shoot some kid.”


This may not be the best example with which to discuss the Castle Doctrine (or whatever version is a particular state's law.)

Tactically, I don't think firing blindly into a dark garage makes any sense at all. I'm familiar with the concept of 'reconnaissance by fire' but I'm not a fan.

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#1920998 - 05/07/14 08:18 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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I live about 30 miles north of were Byron Smith lived, we have been talking about his case for a while and I still don't know where I stand. At some point protecting yourself becomes murder, but where is that line?
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#1921000 - 05/07/14 08:21 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Xian Ngyuen
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Way, way south.
Originally Posted By: EdSpenser
From the linked article
Quote:
...A hairstylist named Felene Sherbondy told the police that Mr. Kaarma had come into the Great Clips salon three days before the shooting and talked about how he had been waiting up with his shotgun for three nights “to shoot some kid.”



That adds some color and if I were on a jury, I'd put some weight on that, for sure.
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#1921003 - 05/07/14 08:25 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Tragic story indeed, but i'm waiting for the story where this happens where some kid wonders onto a property because of a flat tire or the like.
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#1921004 - 05/07/14 08:26 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? raitchjay
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someone on my property - either talk to them or if I'm not comfortable, call the police

someone breaking into my house - a different story
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#1921006 - 05/07/14 08:27 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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or a cop has spotted the criminal and found him in the garage and get shot by the home owner.

Home owner was wrong but no sympathy for the crook.
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#1921008 - 05/07/14 08:28 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Peepers
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Originally Posted By: RR Peepers
someone on my property - either talk to them or if I'm not comfortable, call the police

someone breaking into my house - a different story


In NY you better find a good attorney even for you house frown
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#1921012 - 05/07/14 08:31 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? DoS
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Originally Posted By: DoS
I live about 30 miles north of were Byron Smith lived, we have been talking about his case for a while and I still don't know where I stand. At some point protecting yourself becomes murder, but where is that line?


Have you listened to the recording that Mr. Smith made of the incident?

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#1921014 - 05/07/14 08:31 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? edAudit
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Originally Posted By: EdAudit
Originally Posted By: RR Peepers
someone on my property - either talk to them or if I'm not comfortable, call the police

someone breaking into my house - a different story


In NY you better find a good attorney even for you house frown


yikes
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#1921016 - 05/07/14 08:34 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Good discussions.

Does the inclusion of an attached garage with a common door to the home and a 10 month old child change anyone's opinion?
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#1921019 - 05/07/14 08:36 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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I dig these types of discussions on the threads (assuming they are allowed :/).

It really gives you an idea of the cultural differences on a regional level.
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#1921021 - 05/07/14 08:36 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Xian Ngyuen
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one state over
Originally Posted By: EdSpenser
Originally Posted By: DoS
I live about 30 miles north of were Byron Smith lived, we have been talking about his case for a while and I still don't know where I stand. At some point protecting yourself becomes murder, but where is that line?


Have you listened to the recording that Mr. Smith made of the incident?


yup ... it's tough to listen to, that's for sure
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#1921024 - 05/07/14 08:38 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Originally Posted By: Norman Paperman
Does the inclusion of an attached garage with a common door to the home and a 10 month old child change anyone's opinion?


in my mind, no

it's still a garage, houses here have a 'regular' door as the common door, basically the same as what's on the front of the house where there is no garage

lock that door, if they get through that, different story
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#1921026 - 05/07/14 08:40 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Originally Posted By: Norman Paperman
I dig these types of discussions on the threads (assuming they are allowed :/).

It really gives you an idea of the cultural differences on a regional level.


In my area police could be at the location in 5 - 10 minutes (yeah right)where in another part of the county it could take 1/2 hour to 45. So that should be part of the equation.
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#1921027 - 05/07/14 08:41 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? raitchjay
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Originally Posted By: raitchjay
where some kid wonders onto a property because of a flat tire or the like.


"A white suburban Detroit homeowner will face trial in June on a second-degree murder charge that he shot to death an unarmed young black woman who knocked on his door seeking help early one November morning, a judge ruled on Wednesday. "

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/15/22314634-renisha-mcbride-shooting-trial-set-for-june?lite
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#1921028 - 05/07/14 08:41 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Originally Posted By: Norman Paperman



Around midnight on April 27, a 17-year-old exchange student from Germany named Diren Dede left the host home where he played Xbox and drained cans of Sprite to set off with a friend through his dark hillside neighborhood. They passed a home whose garage door hung partially open. Using a cellphone for light, Mr. Dede headed in.

Inside the house, motion sensors alerted Markus Kaarma to an intruder’s presence. Two recent burglaries had put Mr. Kaarma and his young family on edge, his lawyer said, and he grabbed a shotgun from the dining room and rushed outside. He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark. Mr. Dede’s body crumpled to the floor.[/i]




If the homeowner had experienced 2 recent burglaries, why would he leave the garage door open? Sounds to me like he was tempting someone to come on his property so he could make an example of them. I'd call it pre-meditated assault at the least, if not pre-meditated manslaughter.
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#1921029 - 05/07/14 08:42 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Shared fault. Stupid kid for entering another persons property uninvited. Owner should have held at the door and called the police. Knowingly going into a dark garage could have just as easily cost him his own life and no one would have nbeen left to protect his family.
A few years ago I had over $8000 worth of my stuff stolen from my gagrage. They had less than a 5 minute window in which to have done it. That means that I came within moments of stumbling into a my darkened garage with 4 people in it (determined by the police by foot prints). At this time I had been armed during the day and had not even had time to take my gun off and put it away. Had I walked into the garage and found myself outnumbered by people that were not suppose to be in my garage, there is a better than average chance that someone would have been shot unless they had immediately complied with my orders. I would never shoot someone over "stuff". I have insurance and and I can get more stuff. But if you are there and in the moment, you do not know if they are there to steal or do harm to your family. And honestly it is unlikely that you will want to open the floor for discussion on the subject.
And I will add this, the right to bear arms is just like every other freedom that we have, it comes with equal resposiblity.
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#1921030 - 05/07/14 08:43 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Norman Paperman
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Originally Posted By: Norman Paperman

Does the inclusion of an attached garage with a common door to the home and a 10 month old child change anyone's opinion?


It makes the tactical decision to go outside the garage and fire into it (making the best avenue of escape for the person in the garage the door into the house) even less sensible.

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#1921032 - 05/07/14 08:46 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? Bankbb1, PITA
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Originally Posted By: Bankbb1, PITA
Shared fault. Stupid kid for entering another persons property uninvited. Owner should have held at the door and called the police. Knowingly going into a dark garage could have just as easily cost him his own life and no one would have nbeen left to protect his family.
A few years ago I had over $8000 worth of my stuff stolen from my gagrage. They had less than a 5 minute window in which to have done it. That means that I came within moments of stumbling into a my darkened garage with 4 people in it (determined by the police by foot prints). At this time I had been armed during the day and had not even had time to take my gun off and put it away. Had I walked into the garage and found myself outnumbered by people that were not suppose to be in my garage, there is a better than average chance that someone would have been shot unless they had immediately complied with my orders. I would never shoot someone over "stuff". I have insurance and and I can get more stuff. But if you are there and in the moment, you do not know if they are there to steal or do harm to your family. And honestly it is unlikely that you will want to open the floor for discussion on the subject.
And I will add this, the right to bear arms is just like every other freedom that we have, it comes with equal resposiblity.


Good thing that you would never keep your running shoes in a unheated space or some place as dirty as a garage so I would assume all were safe and accounted for?
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#1921034 - 05/07/14 08:49 PM Re: Castle Doctrine: What would you do? MyBrainHurts
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Originally Posted By: MyBrainHurts
Originally Posted By: raitchjay
where some kid wonders onto a property because of a flat tire or the like.


"A white suburban Detroit homeowner will face trial in June on a second-degree murder charge that he shot to death an unarmed young black woman who knocked on his door seeking help early one November morning, a judge ruled on Wednesday. "

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/15/22314634-renisha-mcbride-shooting-trial-set-for-june?lite


Thanks MHB....i'm gonna read this shortly, but this scenario sounds like the kind of tragedy i was talking about.
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