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#1987172 - 01/08/15 01:41 AM Same Sex Marriage
SunnyFL, CRCM Offline
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FL
Florida now recognizes same sex marriages and we will be making adjustments as needed. Although it appears it could always be overturned in higher level courts we need to act according to what is in affect today. We have consulted our attorneys but I am interested in what other practical issues banks have experienced ahead of us. Specifically, how do you verify....certify......clarify......a legal marriage, when you never did before when a man and woman, husband and wife situation? Did you modify forms right away to "spouse"....... what about tenants by the entirety? What areas did you not think to consider? I am posting in this forum in hopes of opinions from bankers in other states. I know laws may vary from state to state but I want to make certain we explore all avenues. Please feel free to send a PM. As always, your knowledge and opinions are valued and appreciated.

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#1987206 - 01/08/15 12:38 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
rlcarey Online
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Outside of maybe collateral perfection, I'm not sure why there would be any impact?? Whether two applicants are married cannot be a consideration in underwriting and all forms should be nuetral.
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#1987262 - 01/08/15 03:31 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
RR Joker Offline
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I would agree. In Georgia, the Deed will reference "spouse of", but we wouldn't require a marriage license to proove it...I would treat same-sex the same way.

If they say they are married, then so be it.
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#1987273 - 01/08/15 03:46 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
Truffle Royale Offline

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We work over a dozen states and I'm finding that preparing the mortgage/deed of trust can be addressed slightly differently in each state. Things like marital property and dower rights can give rise to issues. I suggest you start by contacting the title company to see if they have any specific wording that is required in their particular state. Recorder's Offices can also help out on this.

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#1987275 - 01/08/15 03:46 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
jaenelle Offline
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Kansas
I would think that if you have a policy of not asking (straight) married applicants to prove marital status and then did ask (gay) married applicants to provide proof, you might have a discrimination claim on your hands.

Except for mortgages and deeds and things like that, I can't think of anything we actually use marital status for.
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#1987441 - 01/08/15 08:47 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
John Burnett Offline
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I know that Florida has a default tenancy-by-the-entirety ownership form for joint deposit accounts owned by spouses. I assume that if either of these combinations of two persons ask to open a joint deposit account, you would ask whether they are married to one another:

A. John Smith and Marilyn Smith
B. John Smith and Sara Jones

So now that Florida allows same-sex marriages and presumably recognizes them if the marriage took place in another state in which they are allowed, I guess you'd add these combinations to the list of those whom you'd need to ask whether they are married to one another:

C. John Smith and James Smith
D. Sara Jones and Marilyn Smith
E. John Smith and James Jones
F. Sara Jones and Nancy Jones

I'm also going to assume you take care of this by having a check-box on the signature card to indicate the joint owners are married to one another, and you actually don't have to ask the question.
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#1987526 - 01/09/15 02:12 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage John Burnett
SunnyFL, CRCM Offline
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Thanks everyone! All good information to consider.

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#1987825 - 01/11/15 07:45 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
Reads Regs Online
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Have you seen this CFPB memo to staff on this topic? http://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/20140...ied-couples.pdf
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#1987863 - 01/12/15 02:54 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage John Burnett
Truffle Royale Offline

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Originally Posted By: John Burnett
I'm also going to assume you take care of this by having a check-box on the signature card to indicate the joint owners are married to one another, and you actually don't have to ask the question.
Not to belabor this point but I've never seen a check-box that says more than 'married'. It doesn't indicate whether it's to the other applicant or not. So if it's two same sex Smiths that appear at your desk you're likely still going to have to ask their spouse's name or hope they introduce themselves as married to each other. They could be siblings, for all you know. There's just no way of deducing this really, imho.

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#1987868 - 01/12/15 03:00 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
John Burnett Offline
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Just out of curiosity, SunnyFL, does your bank's signature card ask the question, and how is the question phrased? Or is it handled by having multiple checkboxes for the type of joint ownership?
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#1988192 - 01/13/15 02:36 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage John Burnett
SunnyFL, CRCM Offline
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Our account agreement has a section shown exactly as follows:

Uniform Single-Party or Multiple-Party Accounts Ownership (Select one and initial):

Single Party Account
Multiple-Party Account
Multiple Party Account-Tenancy By The Entirety. (The parties must be husband and wife.)
Trust - Separate Agreement Account.
Other:

Any suggestions?

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#1988199 - 01/13/15 02:41 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
rlcarey Online
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Galveston, TX
Looks like your forms vendor needs to get with the times.
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#1988301 - 01/13/15 04:39 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
John Burnett Offline
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Cape Cod
The forms vendor probably ought to change that parenthetical to "The parties must be married to one another."

All Florida institutions are facing this question due to the action of the judge and the apparent lack of an appeal from that action. Sounds like something the state banking association ought to be "all over" to help its membership make the changes needed.
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#1988354 - 01/13/15 06:01 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage John Burnett
SunnyFL, CRCM Offline
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FL
You took the words right out of my mouth John. Thanks again everyone.

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#1988364 - 01/13/15 06:25 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
RR Joker Offline
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Technically, even in same sex marriages, isn't there a technical husband and a technical wife?

just curious!
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#1988410 - 01/13/15 07:39 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
Truffle Royale Offline

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I don't think so, Joker. I think husband and wife are gender specific. Elton John and his husband refer to each other as 'husband'. Ellen and Portia are both wife to each other.

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#1988427 - 01/13/15 08:00 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
RR Joker Offline
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RR Joker
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The Swamp
Hum. I've always heard it separated out.
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#1988451 - 01/13/15 08:29 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
Truffle Royale Offline

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And that would be why 'spouse' would seem the best option, imho.

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#1988463 - 01/13/15 08:43 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage RR Joker
jaenelle Offline
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Kansas
Originally Posted By: RR Joker
Technically, even in same sex marriages, isn't there a technical husband and a technical wife?

just curious!


I don't know about everyone else, but wife and I both refer to each other as wife.
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#1991948 - 01/28/15 09:03 PM Re: Same Sex Marriage SunnyFL, CRCM
TaraSue Offline
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On a related note, I can see where this would make a difference in IRA and beneficiary. We do not currently require a marriage license in that scenario, we simply go on the word of the account holder. Our beneficiary check box allows for "spouse" or "non-spouse" and we select accordingly.

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