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#1993834 - 02/05/15 05:55 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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The big problem I see is that the tens of billions in China and India, that could care less about the possibility of global warming, make the small effect of the few hundred million in the US's "global warming emissions" all but meaningless.

The problem with trying to point out that nature controls nature is that the other side only views that as arguing for pollution. No one is arguing for pollution just which scientific data we choose to believe.

We all have our own level of scientific faith in current scientific consensus. Me personally, knowing consensus's often change I am trying to keep my eyes open for all info on the subject and doing my best to work with that.
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#1993838 - 02/05/15 06:00 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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FINALLY ABOVE the gnat line
vaccinations causing autism was a made up paper by a doc in the UK who has since been discredited and had his license revoked.

all medicine has a side effect. everyone needs to determine if they wish to risk the particular side effects or not. it's a risk management decision. mercury is no longer used in vaccinations per the papers I've read. so that hazard no longer exists.

GMOs - I've read that they contain trace elements of round up in the food produced. Not what I want to be eating - will keep my organic fruits and veggies.

Agree with Noelekal on evolution.
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#1993840 - 02/05/15 06:03 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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on the evolution thing

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-microbes-deep-sea-evolution-20150202-story.html

by not evolving it may prove evolution.

Don't you just love "science".

For the scientists in the study please wiki

"alligators and crocodiles"
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#1993847 - 02/05/15 06:09 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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"The big problem I see is that the tens of billions in China and India, that could care less about the possibility of global warming, make the small effect of the few hundred million in the US's "global warming emissions" all but meaningless.'

It's amazing how totalitarian regimes, who already have all control, are never concerned about "global warming." Global warming is about control. Once American liberty is sufficiently strangled do you think we'll still be concerned with the fiction of global warming?

Global warming will go away one day. In one respect it'll be a sad day for we will have completed our turn away from the freedoms contained within the founding principals of this nation and will have put the final nail in our own collective coffin.
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#1993853 - 02/05/15 06:25 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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Excellent point noelekal!
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#1993858 - 02/05/15 06:30 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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Vaccinations - they are worried whether I get vaccinated but what about those millions of illegals in our country?

Evolution - if evolution is true then why are there still apes?

GMOs - $$ not safety

Climate change - Bill Nye the Science Guy says he believes in climate change and that is good enough for me. Pollution and deforestation of the rain forests. Trust me...er...the Science Guy.
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#1993862 - 02/05/15 06:33 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? noelekal
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Originally Posted By: noelekal

Vaccinations - A trumped up issue to bludgeon conservatives.


"bludgeon conservatives"? I dont even see how this is a bi-partisan issue. If anything it seems like most of the anit-vaccination people lean more liberal and environmentalist-types(everything is better "natural" thinking). And they get killed in the media.

Originally Posted By: noelekal

Evolution - A handy theory (it's still a theory by the way)

You're completely misunderstanding the word "theory". you're thinking of it the way it's used coloquially--a guess. But in Science, a guess is a hypothesis. A "theory" in science is a hypothesis that has gone through testing and has an incredibly high level of evidence to support it. By your logic the theory of gravity or the theory of relativity are suspect.


Originally Posted By: noelekal
whereby one can throw enough millions of years at a life form and make it develop into anything he so desires.)

no, no no. that's not at all what evolution is. it doesn't things into what it desires. There's no pre-set plan. it's creatures adapting to the circumstances of the time or dying out. Survival of the fittest (for that particular situation)

Originally Posted By: noelekal
Evolution shares a kinship with global warming in that regard. That evolution is as much an article of faith as is creationism may not be denied.


i'm denying it right now. In fact, I"m saying it's completely wrong. Creationism doesn't have evidence to support it. Evolution does-- skeletons of previous species, DNA tracking, you can even observe it happening through experiments (with flies that live for only a day kept in the dark) and through observing (antibiotic-resisitent viruses)

Originally Posted By: noelekal
Evolution is so convenient when Man wants to be the highest moral authority.


There's nothing about morality to the theory. It's simply an explanation of how we came to be. Do you believe in genetics? Like your kids inherit some (but not all) of the traits you have? Because if you do, then you kind of have to accept evolution as a logical extention. Because you pass traits on, and because certain traits allow you to live long enough and be more likely to reproduce, then it's logical that those traits would become more prominent. I mean you can just look around you and see how different humans are today and how it relates to the areas that they have inhabited. Toss in the billions of years the earth has been around and you dont think there would be significant changes to species?

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#1993866 - 02/05/15 06:37 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Sherlocked
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Originally Posted By: Sherlocked
Vaccinations - they are worried whether I get vaccinated but what about those millions of illegals in our country?


Seems unrelated issues. nobody is saying illegals shouldn't be vaccinated.

Originally Posted By: Sherlocked
Evolution - if evolution is true then why are there still apes?


That's a common misconception. A) we didn't evolve from modern apes. We share a common ancestor with them (who split into multiple different "branches"--some of those new species survived, some went extinct, and some became us!)

and B) evolution from a species doesn't necessarily mean the parent species completely dies out. So, say you have part of a species move to a new environment and over time adapt to THAT place. That doesn't affect the original core group (although over time it's likely they have evolved in their own way)

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#1993872 - 02/05/15 06:47 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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I don't think some form of evolution and creation are mutually exclusive.

However, the creation of life by an accident (which I am guessing Stup Man believes from his comments - correct me if I am wrong) is too fantastic to believe IMHO.

I read once that the idea that a random explosion (of some form) resulting in life is akin to an explosion going off in a room and the result was a perfect placement of everything that was in that room with no missed item askew.
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#1993878 - 02/05/15 06:55 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Stupendous Man
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Originally Posted By: Stupendous Man
Just out of curiosity, you guys that dont buy climate change where do you stand on other science denying issues?

GMOs? Vaccinations? Evolution?


What do you mean?

It is denialism to state that GMOs are harmful. Same with the debunked claim that vaccinations cause autism. You have to be more specific with evolution.
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#1993880 - 02/05/15 06:55 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? MB Guy
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Originally Posted By: MB Guy
However, the creation of life by an accident (which I am guessing Stup Man believes from his comments - correct me if I am wrong) is too fantastic to believe IMHO.


I dont have any idea what spurred the basic beginning of life. We dont have a really good theory and no evidence and we haven't come close to recreating it in a life. If you want to say God did THAT, i have no contradicting evidence.

Although i will say that the analogy to a perfectly placed room assumes we are some kind of ideal final product. i dont think i agree with that. it looks like a complex journey to this point only if you assume this point is the only conclusion.

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#1993932 - 02/05/15 08:16 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Stupendous Man
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Originally Posted By: Stupendous Man
Just out of curiosity, you guys that dont buy climate change where do you stand on other science denying issues?

GMOs? Vaccinations? Evolution?



Science denier? Nope
GMO's - I am just grateful that I have enough food to provide to my family and that we don't go hungry or malnourished.
Vaccinations – People should be free to make their own choices regarding vaccines. I understand that can have negative effects on others but so can smoking, drinking and doing drugs to name a few.
Evolution – I don’t believe it in the way it is taught many times. I believe there is a great creator (I call him God) and I do believe that he has a plan for his creations. I don’t believe all things were created in 6 days but I do believe they were created (It could have be 6 periods over millions or billions of years and I do know that things can and do change). I believe that scientists are just men stumbling around trying to figure out how God does things. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they get it wrong. I truthfully don’t know how God created everything but I have seen enough to know there is a creator.
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#1993998 - 02/05/15 10:43 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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You're completely misunderstanding the word "theory". you're thinking of it the way it's used coloquially--a guess. But in Science, a guess is a hypothesis. A "theory" in science is a hypothesis that has gone through testing and has an incredibly high level of evidence to support it. By your logic the theory of gravity or the theory of relativity are suspect.

Kind of. A theory is educated, supported by ancillary facts, and likely is true. They are supported by observations but not the actually observation, which prevents it form actually being proven. Just this week they determined that the Universe was not growing based on the what was once thought to be background radiation. The entire big bang theory was predicated on this radiation. That now means, they will need to rework the creation of the Universe. Might it have started in a big bang? Sure. Did this just blow a major hole in the thoery? Yes.

Quote:
no, no no. that's not at all what evolution is. it doesn't things into what it desires. There's no pre-set plan. it's creatures adapting to the circumstances of the time or dying out. Survival of the fittest (for that particular situation)


What you are describing is NATURAL SELECTION (Capitalized to show the difference not to yell). Natural Selection and evolution are two different things. Evolution has never been actually observed. Some of the things we are learning about paragenetics might be proving that things don't actually evolve at all. Their genes might read one way based on outside stimuli. It might turn out that evolution ends up to be false.

Quote:
i'm denying it right now. In fact, I"m saying it's completely wrong. Creationism doesn't have evidence to support it. Evolution does-- skeletons of previous species, DNA tracking, you can even observe it happening through experiments (with flies that live for only a day kept in the dark) and through observing (antibiotic-resisitent viruses)


I agree that creationism does not have much support. But looking at skeletons of things and saying "See this changed" is just as flawed. First, some skeletal changes could have been environmental and second, there is no actual indication of a change. When you look at two things and see a difference, that does not mean you saw a change. Those are two different things. FWIW I believe in evolution, and natural selection. But if you are going to be objective about it, you are going to have to look at the actual evidence. While I believe in evolution, it has never been witnessed and there is no positive or absolute evidence of its existance.

Quote:
There's nothing about morality to the theory. It's simply an explanation of how we came to be.

Again, I am not sure where you get your science from but Evolution is not an explanation of how we came to be. Evolution is a THEORY that tries to explain observable differences over time with that which is unobservable.

Example. Many current theorists believe that Dinosaurs became birds. Let's not even get into the discussion about the THEORY of the meteor and how it contradicts the theory of the evolution of dinosaurs into birds. Do dinosaurs look like they could have become birds? Yes. Have people ever found fossils of dinosaurs with what appear to be feathers? Maybe. They found lizard looking things, or maybe bird looking lizards that have wings and feathers. Does this prove that birds became dinosaurs? Not at all. Does it make the theory plausible that birds became dinosaurs. Yes. At a very minimum it makes the theory plausible. Unfortunately, that is all it does.

I am not trying to make you look bad here but just go do some research on it. Try to search from the perspective of trying to prove evolution does exist. When you look at what proof there is, you will realize that there actually is no proof. I think it exists, but that is just me. Do I know for certain it exists? Nope! Unfortunately there has never been any proof.
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#1993999 - 02/05/15 10:49 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Stupendous Man
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Originally Posted By: Stupendous Man
Originally Posted By: MB Guy
However, the creation of life by an accident (which I am guessing Stup Man believes from his comments - correct me if I am wrong) is too fantastic to believe IMHO.


I dont have any idea what spurred the basic beginning of life. We dont have a really good theory and no evidence and we haven't come close to recreating it in a life. If you want to say God did THAT, i have no contradicting evidence.

Although i will say that the analogy to a perfectly placed room assumes we are some kind of ideal final product. i dont think i agree with that. it looks like a complex journey to this point only if you assume this point is the only conclusion.


I think life is fairly ubiquitous in the universe. The simple fact that they find complex amino acids pretty much every where they look, from comets to planets, suggests that it was just not coincidence that life occurred. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying sentient life exists all over the universe. But I doubt we will ever know. Right now our radio waves that we sent out to find life, have pretty much not made it an inch in the entire vastness of the universe, let alone our own galaxy.
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#1994068 - 02/06/15 02:44 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
[quote] Just this week they determined that the Universe was not growing based on the what was once thought to be background radiation. The entire big bang theory was predicated on this radiation. That now means, they will need to rework the creation of the Universe. Might it have started in a big bang? Sure. Did this just blow a major hole in the thoery? Yes.
.


Do you have a source for this? i havent heard it and my google-fu was not strong enough.

Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic

What you are describing is NATURAL SELECTION (Capitalized to show the difference not to yell). Natural Selection and evolution are two different things.


Natural selection is one of the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.

Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
Evolution has never been actually observed.


Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
But if you are going to be objective about it, you are going to have to look at the actual evidence. While I believe in evolution, it has never been witnessed and there is no positive or absolute evidence of its existance.


Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
FWIW I believe in evolution, and natural selection.


I'm confused by a couple things.

So, you beleive in evolution and natural selection, but you say there's no evidence. So why do you believe?

And when you say it hasn't been observed--well it has. Look at antibiotic-resistent strains of diseases or insects developing resistence to pesticides.

Or are you looking for some kind of incredible Hulk/Wolfman like transformation of an individual? because that's not what evolution proposes. What exactly are you wanting when you say evolution has never been observed?


Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
When you look at what proof there is, you will realize that there actually is no proof. I think it exists, but that is just me. Do I know for certain it exists? Nope! Unfortunately there has never been any proof.


Well "proof" is tricky in science. It's actually why science is so great. Nothing is 100% "proven". Not Newton's laws of physics, not gravity, and not even that the sky is blue. Science as a method deals in evidence, not proof. it acknowledges that you can never know for sure that no evidence will come up in the future that contradicts what we already believe. All of the evidence we have points to evolution. While a future discovery may contradict that, it's highly unlikely. Because there's a ton of evidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

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#1994084 - 02/06/15 03:05 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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Do you have a source for this? i havent heard it and my google-fu was not strong enough.


http://raleighco.com/writing/turns-to-interstellar-dust/

Quote:
Natural selection is one of the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.


Ehhh I think you are still confused on this one. You were describing Natural Selection and calling it evolution. Although you can claim that natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, they are really not the same thing. I can give you that it is a mechanism but very loosely. Natural selection is not an animal evolving at all. It is where a trait is removed because it provides a particular disadvantage. It is actually more like the opposite of evolution (but not devolution).

Quote:
I'm confused by a couple things.

So, you beleive in evolution and natural selection, but you say there's no evidence. So why do you believe?


I said that evolution has never been observed. Natural Selection has been observed. I will chalk that up to a mistype but if we are going to have this debate you have to get my context right. Now, it does not mean evolution cannot be correct. I believe them, because I think they are a likely scenario.

Quote:
And when you say it hasn't been observed--well it has. Look at antibiotic-resistent strains of diseases or insects developing resistence to pesticides.


Those are actually observations of natural selection. They have determined that certain cells of the bacteria and certain insects had abilities to be resistant. In the case of the insects, they could use oxygen more efficiently. What happend was the insects that could use oxygen better survived to reproduce, thus making the next generations full of genes that could survive better. That is natural selection at its finest.

Quote:
Well "proof" is tricky in science. It's actually why science is so great. Nothing is 100% "proven". Not Newton's laws of physics, not gravity, and not even that the sky is blue. Science as a method deals in evidence, not proof. it acknowledges that you can never know for sure that no evidence will come up in the future that contradicts what we already believe. All of the evidence we have points to evolution. While a future discovery may contradict that, it's highly unlikely. Because there's a ton of evidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent


Well that is not true. You can prove the laws of gravity every day. What you cannot prove every day is the exact calculation. So on one hand I can observe gravity. I say, yes gravity must exist. Now can I observe evolution? No. But I think it likely exists.

Hey I agree that almost all of the evidence points to evolution. I believe in evolution.

I want to expand on the big bang theory and apply it evolution if you will indulge me.

The Big bang theory is wrong. It is not wrong because god created the universe, it is wrong because something else happened outside of the big bang. Do some of the concepts of the big bang hold true? Yes certainly. Was there likely some form of a big bang? Sure. I think if you ask most physicists they will tell you that the big bang is true because it permits them to expand physics theory. But if you ask them did it happen how the experts thing it did, they will tell you probably not. Now, keep in mind that we cannot ever see the big bang. We will never see anything like it. But we see things that we correlate to be related to it. Thus the big question: does that mean it happened?

Answer: No. The only way to be sure that it happened is through observation. You cannot be certain of what happened by seeing the after effects of something. But you can get a very good idea of what happened.

So now how does this apply to evolution? This applies because we think it happened but we have never witnessed it. We have witnessed clues suggesting (strongly) that it exists.

So now that the bacteria and insect thing can be chalked up to Natural Selection (which has been observed). I again contend, please find me evidence of evolution if you feel so strongly to tell other people it is proven science. I think it is true and you think it is true. But until evolution is observed we cannot go around simply dismissing other alternatives.
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#1994090 - 02/06/15 03:13 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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I think Darwin put it best when he said, evolution has been observed, but just not while it is happening.

The key is to not dismiss other alternatives unless you actually witness something. I believe in evolution. But I try not to go rubbing peoples face in the mud who have a valid objection to it.

But imo the bible is not a valid objection to evolution. Who ever said that god created a world where life was incapable of evolution.
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#1994093 - 02/06/15 03:25 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic


Quote:
I'm confused by a couple things.

So, you beleive in evolution and natural selection, but you say there's no evidence. So why do you believe?


I said that evolution has never been observed. Natural Selection has been observed. I will chalk that up to a mistype but if we are going to have this debate you have to get my context right. Now, it does not mean evolution cannot be correct. I believe them, because I think they are a likely scenario.



No, not a mistype (at least not on my part). You directly said there was no evidence:


Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
FWIW I believe in evolution, and natural selection. But if you are going to be objective about it, you are going to have to look at the actual evidence. While I believe in evolution, it has never been witnessed and there is no positive or absolute evidence of its existance.

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#1994100 - 02/06/15 03:37 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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I said there was no evidence in evolution. You typed that I believed there was not evidence in evolution and Natural Selection. Those are two separate concepts. Anyway the difference between evidence and absolute evidence is distinct. I made that quite clear but you claim I say there is no evidence. That is false, there is plenty of evidence. But nothing has been observed while it occurs.
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#1994101 - 02/06/15 03:37 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
I again contend, please find me evidence of evolution if you feel so strongly to tell other people it is proven science.


Now you are misrepresenting me. I have repeatedly said that "proven science" isn't really a thing. There should always be an openness to new evidence.


I actually dont even know what we're disagreeing on (other than some scientific definitions). But if you accept that the evidence suppports natural selection and evolution, then we're 95% there. I just dont get when you're saying there's evidence for natural selection but not evolution.

like, if not natural selection, what part of evolution do you think is unsupported by the evidence? genetic variation? reproduction? genetic drift?

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#1994103 - 02/06/15 03:39 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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When I was young the general scientific and medical consensus was that Asian acupuncture and chiropractic medicine was stone age voodoo and did nothing to actually heal a patent. The IL board of health even tried to outlaw the practices in the late 80's (My Uncle is a Doctor of Oriental Medicine that has taught at the UW and University of IL beyond is own practice)

Now my doctor often refers me to one of those 2 kinds of doctors for treatment their western education/training can not offer.

I worry when people say oh this group of people say those groups of people have nothing to offer and refuse to even look at the other-side as the "consensus" say not to bother.
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#1994109 - 02/06/15 03:44 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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Maybe a bad example Wolfy maybe a good one. I think the reasons that those types of practices were outlawed was because of the lack of training required to get certified and greed by the medical industry.

I have had back problems for years. I have seen a half dozen chiropractors. None of them ever did anything for my problems. They all talked the talk but the results never improved. I figured the problem out by watching a youtube video by a guy who was not a chiropractor. Since then (3 years), problem solved.
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#1994110 - 02/06/15 03:45 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Stupendous Man
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Originally Posted By: Stupendous Man
Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
I again contend, please find me evidence of evolution if you feel so strongly to tell other people it is proven science.


Now you are misrepresenting me. I have repeatedly said that "proven science" isn't really a thing. There should always be an openness to new evidence.


I actually dont even know what we're disagreeing on (other than some scientific definitions). But if you accept that the evidence suppports natural selection and evolution, then we're 95% there. I just dont get when you're saying there's evidence for natural selection but not evolution.

like, if not natural selection, what part of evolution do you think is unsupported by the evidence? genetic variation? reproduction? genetic drift?


OK here is your quote:

Quote:
You're completely misunderstanding the word "theory". you're thinking of it the way it's used coloquially--a guess. But in Science, a guess is a hypothesis. A "theory" in science is a hypothesis that has gone through testing and has an incredibly high level of evidence to support it. By your logic the theory of gravity or the theory of relativity are suspect.


When I read this I believe you are implying that all scientific theories, observed or unobserved are flawless, because..... science.
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#1994119 - 02/06/15 03:54 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
Maybe a bad example Wolfy maybe a good one. I think the reasons that those types of practices were outlawed was because of the lack of training required to get certified and greed by the medical industry.

I have had back problems for years. I have seen a half dozen chiropractors. None of them ever did anything for my problems. They all talked the talk but the results never improved. I figured the problem out by watching a youtube video by a guy who was not a chiropractor. Since then (3 years), problem solved.


Regardless of the possible reasons for the attempted consensus to block the practices it happened.

And being related to a long practicing Doctor I can site thousands of people helped and healed by Asian medicine and the news of full of stories of people injured by self medicating based on youtube videos.

(but then again self medicating based on YouTube videos being a bad idea is a consensus and you know full well based on your example the consensus is not always right)
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#1994125 - 02/06/15 04:01 PM Re: Global warming or climate change? HappyGilmore
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I propose that we put this thread in a time capsule and open it in 50 years. Time will tell...
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