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#200195 - 06/14/04 09:32 PM Midnight Definition
M Cockrell Offline
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M Cockrell
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Posts: 1,046
Dallas, TX
LEGALLY speaking does midnight end the day or begin it (i.e. is MIDNIGHT June 14th the start or close of today)?
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Lending Compliance
#200196 - 06/14/04 09:46 PM Re: Midnight Definition
Anonymous
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I am just guessing, but I would think 11:59:59 would be the last second of a day and 12:00:00 midnight would be "zero" starting the next day.

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#200197 - 06/14/04 10:14 PM Re: Midnight Definition
Anonymous
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I would say that midnight ends the day. For example it would be midnight on Monday, June 14th ending the day of the 14th. But another way of looking at it is Alpha and the Omega.

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#200198 - 06/14/04 10:23 PM Re: Midnight Definition
Richard Insley Online
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Toano, VA
Why is this question relevant to lending compliance? Since you aren't open during that part of the day, isn't it a moot point?
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#200199 - 06/14/04 11:14 PM Re: Midnight Definition
NotALawyer Offline
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NotALawyer
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It could apply to a consumer faxing in a recision notice in the middle of the night.

Just a possibility.

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#200200 - 06/15/04 12:33 PM Re: Midnight Definition
RVFlyboy Offline
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Well if they fax a rescission notice at exactly midnight of the 3rd business day, then I'm going to recommend to my bank that we honor the rescission. Heck, I'd probably recommend we honor it even if they fax it at 12:01am on the 4th business day. Their clock may not be set exactly with yours.
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#200201 - 06/15/04 12:48 PM Re: Midnight Definition
Anonymous
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Midnight is a point in time. On a timeline, it has a width of 0, just like a point on a line or plane. Midnight is the moment when days change, it is not part of either day. Nor is it between days. The second between midnight and 12:00:01 is a line segment on a timeline, but that entire second is not midnight.

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#200202 - 06/15/04 01:02 PM Re: Midnight Definition
RVFlyboy Offline
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Well, thank YOU Carl Sagan!
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#200203 - 06/28/04 07:17 PM Re: Midnight Definition
M Cockrell Offline
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M Cockrell
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Dallas, TX
The question was raised based on the phrasing on our doc's re: signing the Right of Rescision. The doc's read, "do so no sooner than midnight on..." I had always been taught that midnight begins the day (hence the change to AM), but the general consensus is midnight (12:00:00) ends the day & 12:00:01 begins the day (e.g. when you count, you don't start w/zero, but w/one). My concern is, if midnight begins the day, then we weren't allowing for 3 full biz days.
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#200204 - 06/28/04 08:19 PM Re: Midnight Definition
Anonymous
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Midnight both begins and ends the day. Midnight is a point where the previous day ends and the following day begins. It belongs to neither day.

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#200205 - 06/28/04 08:19 PM Re: Midnight Definition
Dan Persfull Offline
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Dan Persfull
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Bloomington, IN
Quote:

My concern is, if midnight begins the day, then we weren't allowing for 3 full biz days.






If they sign at 12:00:00 (they would have to be really fast to hit this exact plus who will be timing it any way) then you have given them 3 full days whether it ends the day (which would end the 3rd day) or starts a new day (which would start the 4th day).

They sign the note on 6/28/04 at 11:59:59 PM (I'm glad I don't work for this bank). They now have from 12:00:00 AM on 6/29/04 to 12:00:00 AM(?) on 7/1/04. You don't count the day the note is signed and you don't disburse funds until the 4th business days after the note date. How are they not getting 3 full business days?
Last edited by dpersfull; 06/28/04 08:22 PM.
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#200206 - 06/28/04 08:43 PM Re: Midnight Definition
M Cockrell Offline
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M Cockrell
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Dallas, TX
Here's the entire scenario: Cust signs ROR on Wed (3 biz days in our case would be Thurs, Fri & Sat) - hence, the non-cancellation verbiage reads "sign no sooner than midnight Sat, Mmm/DD/CCYY." - cust signs @ 1 AM (i.e. after 12:00 AM) on Sat morning & then comes strolling into the bank @ 10 AM - we cut cashiers check to client on Sat - even though the item won't process 'til Mon's biz day, cust rcvs funds on Sat before end of 3 day ROR ends - potentially, the client could come back 6 mos later & say we didn't allow them the req'd 3 days & thus extend their ROR for 3 yrs - yes??? so, when the doc verbiage refers to "midnight," is that when the clock changes to 12:00 AM early Sat morning or 12:00 AM late Sat night?
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#200207 - 06/28/04 09:01 PM Re: Midnight Definition
Dan Persfull Offline
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Bloomington, IN
Quote:

cust rcvs funds on Sat before end of 3 day ROR ends -




You need to stop that practice immediately. You can cut the checks at any time after the loan closing, but in no case should the checks be delivered to the borrower until after the ROR expires.

We give our customers a choice.

1. If you want the funds the day after the ROR expires, then you must return with your copy of the ROR and sign the the confirmation section that you do not wish to cancel. If more than one signer with the ROR all must come in.

2. If you do not want to come back in then we will disburse your funds 3 business days after the ROR expires. To us this a reasonable time to allow for a mailed copy of the ROR to be received.
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#200208 - 06/28/04 09:32 PM Re: Midnight Definition
M Cockrell Offline
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M Cockrell
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Dallas, TX
we haven't actually done this (yet), but I'm attempting to prevent it & I'm afraid without a LEGAL definition of when "midnight" begins our non-cancellation verbiage is vague at best - so I guess I'll be contacting our regulator & see if I can have them define it one way or the other
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#200209 - 06/28/04 09:33 PM Re: Midnight Definition
NotALawyer Offline
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NotALawyer
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Quote:

potentially, the client could come back 6 mos later & say we didn't allow them the req'd 3 days & thus extend their ROR for 3 yrs - yes???




Yup. Three full business days had not transpired. This is a VERY risky practice.

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