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#2013373 - 05/11/15 09:41 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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#2013383 - 05/11/15 10:01 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Wow, I guess if this actually happens (remembers Viking player suspended a game for stepping on quarterback that was then lifted before it ever went into effect)I may think the NFL is serious about cleaning house.
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#2013405 - 05/12/15 10:30 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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only 4 games the "investigation" was much longer than that.

This is not the same as scuffing up a base ball. It would be the same as using a smaller ball that would be more difficult for the opposing batters to hit using it for at least 2 years and lying about it.
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#2013408 - 05/12/15 11:46 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
only 4 games the "investigation" was much longer than that.

This is not the same as scuffing up a base ball. It would be the same as using a smaller ball that would be more difficult for the opposing batters to hit using it for at least 2 years and lying about it.
Oh, it is not. Quit being such a whiner. First off, the other team used their own balls, not the one's the Patriots were supposedly deflating, so their opponents ability to score was not impeded at all. Second, where is your proof that the Patriots were deflating balls at all, much less for more than 2 years? The flawed report that dismisses Walt Coleman's best recollection because if they accept it, the numbers fit with weather conditions being able to have been the only factor to have impacted the balls?
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#2013409 - 05/12/15 11:49 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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And I can provide you links to articles where ex-Patriots Tedy Bruschi and Troy Brown say they 100% believe Tom Brady had nothing to do with cheating. You have to remember too, Damien Woody played for a time with the Patriots - but where did he spend the final 3 years of his playing career?
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#2013411 - 05/12/15 12:06 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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I never did.....the penalty is a little severe for his supposed violation when let's look at some other NFL players in the past and their punishments........plus, every other team does the same thing, they just haven't gotten caught and plus, they're the Patriots, anyone will find any reason to take them down for one reason or another. It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. You're all entitled to yours.

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#2013412 - 05/12/15 12:07 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Tedy and Troy.....sigh....my two favorite Pats players ever!!! I miss them both in the game dearly!

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#2013415 - 05/12/15 12:11 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
Originally Posted By edAudit
only 4 games the "investigation" was much longer than that.

This is not the same as scuffing up a base ball. It would be the same as using a smaller ball that would be more difficult for the opposing batters to hit using it for at least 2 years and lying about it.
Oh, it is not. Quit being such a whiner. First off, the other team used their own balls, not the one's the Patriots were supposedly deflating, so their opponents ability to score was not impeded at all. Second, where is your proof that the Patriots were deflating balls at all, much less for more than 2 years? The flawed report that dismisses Walt Coleman's best recollection because if they accept it, the numbers fit with weather conditions being able to have been the only factor to have impacted the balls?


Why would the equipment guy refer to himself as "the deflator" prior to the 2014 season if he had not deflated a ball or two. if the balls were deflated due to some mysterious weather pattern the balls of the other team would have been deflated as well. PS it is not whining to see a team punished for actual crimes committed.
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#2013416 - 05/12/15 12:11 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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The NFL has been very explicit over the years in their desire for league parity. They have structured draft rules, scheduling rules, and many others to try to force a level of parity to exist. They can't stand that over the past 15 years, in spite of all the attempted parity, the Patriots have dominated the league. There must be cheating going on, because no team can be that good. If you have an agenda to look for cheating you've already determined exists, you'll pretty much find it. But that holds true with any team, not just the Patriots.
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#2013417 - 05/12/15 12:13 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
And I can provide you links to articles where ex-Patriots Tedy Bruschi and Troy Brown say they 100% believe Tom Brady had nothing to do with cheating. You have to remember too, Damien Woody played for a time with the Patriots - but where did he spend the final 3 years of his playing career?
on would think that the guy that snapped the ball would have an idea if it was deflated. Once again a Pats fan has blamed the Jets (a far worse team even if they used an unknown 5th string QB) for issues cause by team members.
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#2013419 - 05/12/15 12:22 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
Originally Posted By edAudit
only 4 games the "investigation" was much longer than that.

This is not the same as scuffing up a base ball. It would be the same as using a smaller ball that would be more difficult for the opposing batters to hit using it for at least 2 years and lying about it.
Oh, it is not. Quit being such a whiner. First off, the other team used their own balls, not the one's the Patriots were supposedly deflating, so their opponents ability to score was not impeded at all. Second, where is your proof that the Patriots were deflating balls at all, much less for more than 2 years? The flawed report that dismisses Walt Coleman's best recollection because if they accept it, the numbers fit with weather conditions being able to have been the only factor to have impacted the balls?


Why would the equipment guy refer to himself as "the deflator" prior to the 2014 season if he had not deflated a ball or two. if the balls were deflated due to some mysterious weather pattern the balls of the other team would have been deflated as well. PS it is not whining to see a team punished for actual crimes committed.

Crimes? Are you serious?

Deflator - Have you read the NY Times article about what goes into the preparations that Eli Manning directs for his game balls? Do you know how many times those balls are deflated and reinflated during the prep process? Could that be a reason to be termed the "deflator"? Or could it be referring to games such as the one referenced in the report where the officials gave them a game ball at 16 psi? Both seem at least possible explanations. Is cheating also a possible explanation? Yes, absolutely. But other plausible explanations exist also, and without corroborating scientific explanation, that doesn't hold true.

Other team's balls impacted by the weather - Go back and read my first PFT link - the Colts balls were impacted by the weather on at least one official's gauge (the report doesn't indicate which gauge). Plus they only tested 4 Colts balls compared to 11 Patriots balls (because they ran out of time). But anyone who is involved in audit should know that sample size impacts conclusions that can be drawn from the results. How do we know that the 4 balls tested of the Colts were not the highest pressure balls they had? We don't. Not to mention, the Patriot balls were tested first (because otherwise they would have run out of time on testing the Patriots balls). Meantime, the Colts balls were sitting back in the warm locker room for 10 minutes waiting to be tested. Do you think that might impact the air pressure?

All I'm saying is we've taken a lot of circumstantial evidence, overlooked key information to get to the conclusion everyone wants, and called it justice. I see it as a frame-up and a witch hunt.
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#2013420 - 05/12/15 12:24 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
And I can provide you links to articles where ex-Patriots Tedy Bruschi and Troy Brown say they 100% believe Tom Brady had nothing to do with cheating. You have to remember too, Damien Woody played for a time with the Patriots - but where did he spend the final 3 years of his playing career?
on would think that the guy that snapped the ball would have an idea if it was deflated. Once again a Pats fan has blamed the Jets (a far worse team even if they used an unknown 5th string QB) for issues cause by team members.
Not blaming the Jests, just saying that there might be a bias to his analysis. One would also think the guy that caught more passes that just about any other human on the planet from Tom Brady would also know if the balls were deflated. One would also think that the umpires who handle and reset the game ball after every play would have an idea if it was deflated. But hey, if it doesn't fit with the agenda, we just ignore it.
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#2013422 - 05/12/15 12:27 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
The NFL has been very explicit over the years in their desire for league parity. They have structured draft rules, scheduling rules, and many others to try to force a level of parity to exist. They can't stand that over the past 15 years, in spite of all the attempted parity, the Patriots have dominated the league. There must be cheating going on, because no team can be that good. If you have an agenda to look for cheating you've already determined exists, you'll pretty much find it. But that holds true with any team, not just the Patriots.


They must be cheating because they were cheating. The colts also had a pretty good past 10 years span and Pittsburgh won 2 SBs as well. The Pats are also in a division with both the Jets and the Dolphins two teams that have not had a good past 10 years.


I would not say that any team has dominated the past 10 years and where parity would be a reason to take anything out against any team,
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#2013423 - 05/12/15 12:30 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
Originally Posted By edAudit
Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
And I can provide you links to articles where ex-Patriots Tedy Bruschi and Troy Brown say they 100% believe Tom Brady had nothing to do with cheating. You have to remember too, Damien Woody played for a time with the Patriots - but where did he spend the final 3 years of his playing career?
on would think that the guy that snapped the ball would have an idea if it was deflated. Once again a Pats fan has blamed the Jets (a far worse team even if they used an unknown 5th string QB) for issues cause by team members.
Not blaming the Jests, just saying that there might be a bias to his analysis. One would also think the guy that caught more passes that just about any other human on the planet from Tom Brady would also know if the balls were deflated. One would also think that the umpires who handle and reset the game ball after every play would have an idea if it was deflated. But hey, if it doesn't fit with the agenda, we just ignore it.
Weather you like it or not the ball was deflated even if it was caused by Gronk spiking it.
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#2013426 - 05/12/15 12:44 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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But even if they were....the investigation didn't definitively prove it. They took all that time, gathered all that information, and all for what? Probably? That's great but I could have said he "probably" did it without doing any research. I think the suspension is harsh considering the fact that it's all based on maybe's and probably's.
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#2013428 - 05/12/15 12:50 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
Weather you like it or not the ball was deflated even if it was caused by Gronk spiking it.
Not arguing that the Patriots balls at halftime of the Colts games were deflated. But deflated how much? Depends on which gauge you use. If you use the gauge that Walt Coleman says to the best recollection was the gauge he used before the game, the decrease at halftime is explainable by weather. If you dismiss Coleman's best recollection and go with the other gauge, then the matter becomes unexplainable by science alone, so you can conclude there must be cheating. So the NFL decides to go with that conclusion without any reasonable explanation for why they dismissed Coleman's best recollection.
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#2013429 - 05/12/15 12:50 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) PrimeTime
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Originally Posted By PrimeTime
But even if they were....the investigation didn't definitively prove it. They took all that time, gathered all that information, and all for what? Probably? That's great but I could have said he "probably" did it without doing any research. I think the suspension is harsh considering the fact that it's all based on maybe's and probably's.
Exactly!
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#2013431 - 05/12/15 12:51 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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In Brady's case it was not about him deflating or not, it was about not cooperation with the investigation. The other guys they have enough evidence. PS how are you going to test the air in the ball from days, months weeks or years ago without the balls. Hence the more probable than not wording.
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#2013433 - 05/12/15 12:53 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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OK, so the league knew the day before the AFC Championship game that there were some suspicions about the balls. You would think, with that knowledge, if they were going to do something they would have made 100% sure they were using calibrated gauges both before and at halftime of the game. Instead, they used cheap, inconsistent gauges you can buy from any Walmart for a couple of bucks, and then don't even make a record of which gauge of two available that they relied on. If anyone should be penalized in this, it should be the NFL for being absolutely clueless on how to conduct a sting operation and ensuing investigation.
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#2013434 - 05/12/15 12:55 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
4 games suspension? I don't see that as much of an issue, seeing as he gets to spend more time at home with his super model wife...

Was there a pattern of deflation? Common sense says yes. Sure, you can say the guy calls himself the "deflator" because he continued to adjust the PSI in the balls, but using that same argument, why wouldn't he call himself the inflator? That argument sounds like one a 5-year old would make when busted getting cookies from the cookie jar - sure, no one saw him take the cookies, but the trail of crumbs lead to him and his shirt is covered in chips-ahoys...

Can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? Well, as the NFL is a monopoly and they make the rules and follow them when they choose, then does it matter if reasonable doubt is established? They said the Patriots are guilty, then they are guilty. No question about it. End of story. Complain all you want, it won't change the NFL ruling.

Do I think that people on the coaching staff knew what was happening? At some level, I say yes, although maybe not to Belichick. Can I prove it? Nope. Can you prove they didn't know? Nope. Lots of "he said/she said" going on, but in the end, a weak punishment that the Patriots can try and get overturned, but in the end it won't change.

If anyone really thinks the NFL is doing this to knock the Patriots down a level or 2 because "they are just too good", then your conspiracy imagination is running rampant. I'll put this up there with "the NFL works the rules to make sure no home city plays in the superbowl." The NFL is about making money, and a successful franchise will always make more money than an unsuccessful one - they'd be shooting holes in their wallet by doing something like this.

Of course, an isolated winter supercell could have formed over the Patriots side of the stadium and caused the hyper-deflation - I understand that Robert Kraft has reached out to Al Gore to do a study on climate change and the impact on football deflation in an outdoor stadium. I'm sure we all eagerly anticipate the results.
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#2013436 - 05/12/15 12:57 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
If anyone should be penalized in this, it should be the NFL for being absolutely clueless on how to conduct a sting operation and ensuing investigation.


thanks for the laugh, Jim. I needed that this morning...
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#2013437 - 05/12/15 12:58 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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4 games suspension? I don't see that as much of an issue, seeing as he gets to spend more time at home with his super model wife.

could be a penalty against her.
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#2013438 - 05/12/15 01:00 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
OK, so the league knew the day before the AFC Championship game that there were some suspicions about the balls. You would think, with that knowledge, if they were going to do something they would have made 100% sure they were using calibrated gauges both before and at halftime of the game. Instead, they used cheap, inconsistent gauges you can buy from any Walmart for a couple of bucks, and then don't even make a record of which gauge of two available that they relied on. If anyone should be penalized in this, it should be the NFL for being absolutely clueless on how to conduct a sting operation and ensuing investigation.


If the league knew about it I would have expected them to take charge of the balls to ensure that no funny business takes place as this was a playoff game not a preseason match.
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#2013439 - 05/12/15 01:01 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
I think the Patriots should go with:

1) Isolated winter supercell
2) Ghosts (everyone knows when ghosts are around the temps drop)

If the gauges were faulty, they would have been faulty for both teams.
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#2013440 - 05/12/15 01:04 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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I would expect for next year no one touches the balls all are under the supervision of league with no prep. This would lead to more interceptions more fumble's and possibly a more exciting game.
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