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#1997700 - 02/23/15 10:42 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) TB 12
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Originally Posted By: Sox in '13
Its the hypocrisy shemp. He railed on the Pats for deflate gate yet admits to cheating himself. You understand hypocrisy, don't you?

If the Pats are found guilty of deflating balls they should be penalized accordingly as they were with spygate.




Sure, and fair enough. But here is the problem I see. I see fans of a team trying to justify cheating because others did it. Then, if someone else cheated at one time, the new cheaters decry that the old cheaters have no moral ground to stand on and thus, cannot point the finger. Anyone can point the finger, past cheater or not.

The other problem I see is akin to the cheating at Penn State, Alabama, Ohio State etc. Cheating is a problem in major athletics and EVERYONE (including you) wants it removed. The problem is what happens when your team becomes the cheater. Then you want to litigate the problem. Oh well it is ok for me to complain about Johnny Manziel or Joe Paterno, but the moment someone levels criticism at my team, they are out of line.

The sad thing is that in the world we live in, right and wrong have been replaced with relative right and wrong. I don't know if NE is guilty in deflategate or not. But I do know they were guilty in spygate. Belicheck should have been banned then just like he should still be banned today.

Now you can go on justifying cheating all you want. I just want the game to return to sportsmanship.
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#1997706 - 02/23/15 11:03 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sound Tactic
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
I just want the game to return to sportsmanship.


too much money involved for this ever to happen...
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#1997746 - 02/24/15 01:36 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
Originally Posted By: Sox in '13
Its the hypocrisy shemp. He railed on the Pats for deflate gate yet admits to cheating himself. You understand hypocrisy, don't you?

If the Pats are found guilty of deflating balls they should be penalized accordingly as they were with spygate.




Sure, and fair enough. But here is the problem I see. I see fans of a team trying to justify cheating because others did it. Then, if someone else cheated at one time, the new cheaters decry that the old cheaters have no moral ground to stand on and thus, cannot point the finger. Anyone can point the finger, past cheater or not.

The other problem I see is akin to the cheating at Penn State, Alabama, Ohio State etc. Cheating is a problem in major athletics and EVERYONE (including you) wants it removed. The problem is what happens when your team becomes the cheater. Then you want to litigate the problem. Oh well it is ok for me to complain about Johnny Manziel or Joe Paterno, but the moment someone levels criticism at my team, they are out of line.

The sad thing is that in the world we live in, right and wrong have been replaced with relative right and wrong. I don't know if NE is guilty in deflategate or not. But I do know they were guilty in spygate. Belicheck should have been banned then just like he should still be banned today.

Now you can go on justifying cheating all you want. I just want the game to return to sportsmanship.


If you read my posts, I have said from the beginning if they are found to have cheated, then they should pay the penalty as they did in 2007. I am not trying to justify anything.

I understand the reason the Pats are under this scrutiny given the past, but it is ridiculous how this story has changed from "the linebacker that intercepted the ball thought the psi was too low" to "a league official was stealing game balls and tried to replace one with a kicking ball". The NFL needs to get its stuff in one bag and get some procedures in place. It isn't very hard to check the footballs, document and secure them until game time.
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#1997856 - 02/24/15 05:56 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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In fairness to you, I was not referring to you, but was instead referring to the royal you.

However, I find it amazing how many people level opinions (this does include you and not the royal you), yet when criticism comes toward something they love, or a team they love, ask for everyone to look at the evidence first.

I will give you this evidence. At the time the NFL measured the footballs, 13 of the 14 were below the psi required. One of those balls was significantly below the PSI required for a game ball. I get that when you have 14 balls, some balls are going to be inflated differently. However, 13 of 14 seems very suspicious. Especially when a player on the other team thinks the psi on the ball is so noticeably suspicious that he says something. A lower PSI ball makes it much easier to catch a ball and throw a ball (particularly in the rain).

Now, months later, the NFL re-evaluated the balls and the psi seems like it might be fine. Why? Because they need them to be. Why? Because if they just gave a championship to a bunch of cheaters (which they did), then the entire product is suspect.

At this point, if I were any NFL team, I would just start cheating like crazy. Why? Because the NFL won't do anything about it. Start throwing picks on every pass just like NE does. Start doing anything you can to cheat. Your fans will justify it, or at a minimum act like they are waiting for the facts to come in. The NFL will try to marginalize it.

Honestly Goodell has to go.
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#1997988 - 02/24/15 09:21 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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If I understand you (not the royal you) correctly, I am wrong for wanting to wait for the evidence to decide if they cheated or not?

Here are some of the versions of deflategate:

1) player says ball is underinflated;
2) Harbaugh (Ravens coach) tipped off Pagano (former Ravens coach);
3) NFL set up a sting operation, sacrificing the first half of the AFC Championship game, to catch the Patriots cheating;
4) One ball is 2psi under inflated;
5) All balls are a few ticks under the minimum psi
6) Patriots attendant took the footballs into the mens room and in 90 seconds deflated the 14 footballs;

and on it goes....the twists and turns never end.

Maybe the "psi seems like it might be fine" because they were fine.

You apparently have inside information that no one else has given the "facts" you have stated. Until the Wells report comes out (for what that will be worth) I am not going to condemn them for cheating.
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#1997994 - 02/24/15 09:28 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Here are some of the versions of deflategate:

1) player says ball is underinflated;
2) Harbaugh (Ravens coach) tipped off Pagano (former Ravens coach);
3) NFL set up a sting operation, sacrificing the first half of the AFC Championship game, to catch the Patriots cheating;
4) One ball is 2psi under inflated;
5) All balls are a few ticks under the minimum psi
6) Patriots attendant took the footballs into the mens room and in 90 seconds deflated the 14 footballs;

and on it goes....the twists and turns never end.


All true and a good way for the NFL to deflect the guilt from a SB winner. There may have been some changes if they lost.
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#1998025 - 02/24/15 10:25 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Quote:
I am wrong for wanting to wait for the evidence to decide if they cheated or not?


Yes. You are wrong for applying different standards to different teams. We all are. I am not saying I know your mind and I am not saying I am any different. This happens all the time amongst sports fans. Just listen to sports radio or sports talking heads. The moment something happens everyone opines. Everyone is always right because they justify their position whether they are right or wrong.
Quote:
NFL set up a sting operation, sacrificing the first half of the AFC Championship game, to catch the Patriots cheating;


I doubt it.
Quote:
One ball is 2psi under inflated;


And was used significantly. Big important fact here.
Quote:
All balls are a few ticks under the minimum psi


It is still cheating. They give you a range so that QBs and a team can have a standard they want. I get NE wanted the balls a little flatter. The problem is that NE made sure that their balls were on the flat side. IE the flat side of the rule. Which is cheating.
Quote:
Patriots attendant took the footballs into the mens room and in 90 seconds deflated the 14 footballs;

I think he is your red herring don't you?
Quote:
Maybe the "psi seems like it might be fine" because they were fine.


Except they were not.

Quote:
You apparently have inside information that no one else has given the "facts" you have stated.


Ahhh you take the bait so well. I just leave it out there and you cannot resist proving my point so right.
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#1998027 - 02/24/15 10:27 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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See the problem with your strawman conspiracy is that from the very first number (1) none of that was needed to suspect the Pats of cheating then testing it. The only thing that was needed was for one colts player to intercept the ball. This guy has been playing football for a long time and noticed something so egregiously wrong with the ball. All he did was said something. Bang 2-6 no longer matter.
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#1998067 - 02/25/15 01:42 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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First of all, thank you for telling me how I should feel or react to a situation.

Secondly, my bullet points are all "versions" of this issue and my point was to illustrate that until the report comes out, I am not going to judge guilt one way or the other. I was not trying to imply any of those versions are right or wrong. Each of those are reports of what happened, whether they relate to the origin of deflate gate or what has happened along the way. It shows how ridiculous this can get.

The Colts linebacker has said he had nothing to do with deflate gate.

I should know better than to bother sparring with you and I don't care how you react or think about the situation. If you want to brand them cheaters, by all means go ahead.

Have a great day.
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#1998070 - 02/25/15 01:47 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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First of all, thank you for telling me how I should feel or react to a situation.


I didn't. You did. You do it all the time. This time is different. It is your team. Now you want to slow down and reserve judgement. Seems inconsistent at best.

Quote:
I should know better than to bother sparring with you and I don't care how you react or think about the situation. If you want to brand them cheaters, by all means go ahead.


I was not aware this turned into a sparring session. If you want to treat similar cases similar, your next post would be the first case of that.
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#1998071 - 02/25/15 01:52 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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In more deflategate new: It has been reported that the Falcons are going to loose a second or third round draft pick and Michael Sam will be dancing with the so called stars.
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#1998084 - 02/25/15 02:39 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By: edAudit
In more deflategate new: It has been reported that the Falcons are going to loose a second or third round draft pick


perhaps they should tighten up their review of their actions when it comes to fake crowd noise
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#1998129 - 02/25/15 04:37 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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FWIW we I am guilty of the same logic as well as the rest of us. Maybe not in every circumstance but from time to time we jump to conclusions. It is natural and a perfectly logical way at dealing with life. If you need to review the evidence every time you make any decision you will starve to death.
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#1998214 - 02/25/15 08:02 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)
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#1998215 - 02/25/15 08:06 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Cheating.
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#1998245 - 02/25/15 09:37 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Pale Rider
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Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)



Thanks Pale

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/deflated-f...fumble-numbers/

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blo...arly-impossible
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#1998248 - 02/25/15 09:47 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Pale Rider
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Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)


What were the fumble averages of those earlier Patriot running backs in years when they played for another NFL team? And for the later, fumble-free Patriot running backs, what were their fumble averages when they played for other NFL teams?

In other words, was the improvement in fumble average attributable to the specific running backs involved, or was there another factor? Those statistics might be helpful in this discussion.
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#1998249 - 02/25/15 09:48 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sinatra Fan
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They played for the Jets and now for that Pats (nuff said). laugh
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#1998251 - 02/25/15 09:47 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Cheaters. All of them.
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#1998254 - 02/25/15 09:51 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sinatra Fan
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Originally Posted By: Sinatra Fan
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)


What were the fumble averages of those earlier Patriot running backs in years when they played for another NFL team? And for the later, fumble-free Patriot running backs, what were their fumble averages when they played for other NFL teams?

In other words, was the improvement in fumble average attributable to the specific running backs involved, or was there another factor? Those statistics might be helpful in this discussion.


Wrong approach SF. Don't bother to investigate or wait for evidence. Run with the headline.
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#1998260 - 02/25/15 10:01 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By: edAudit
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)






Thanks Pale

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/deflated-f...fumble-numbers/

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blo...arly-impossible



There are some issues with those findings:


fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/your-guide-to-deflate-gateballghai-related-statistical-analyses/


I havent been paying attention, but has anyone actually gone and filled up a football to the minimum, taken it outside to roughly the same temp as the game and seen how long (if ever) it took to deflate to whatever they were when the league pulled them?

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#1998265 - 02/25/15 10:12 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Stupendous Man
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Originally Posted By: Stupendous Man

Originally Posted By: edAudit
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)


If they did do that there would be no controversy. It is to simple of an approach and depending on the out come may not agree with the required outcome as set forth by Goodall (whichever that may be).




Thanks Pale

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/deflated-f...fumble-numbers/

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blo...arly-impossible



There are some issues with those findings:


fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/your-guide-to-deflate-gateballghai-related-statistical-analyses/


I havent been paying attention, but has anyone actually gone and filled up a football to the minimum, taken it outside to roughly the same temp as the game and seen how long (if ever) it took to deflate to whatever they were when the league pulled them?
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#1998267 - 02/25/15 10:13 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sinatra Fan
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Originally Posted By: Sinatra Fan
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)


What were the fumble averages of those earlier Patriot running backs in years when they played for another NFL team? And for the later, fumble-free Patriot running backs, what were their fumble averages when they played for other NFL teams?

In other words, was the improvement in fumble average attributable to the specific running backs involved, or was there another factor? Those statistics might be helpful in this discussion.


http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blo...for-other-teams

Individual players who played on New England during the 2007-14 span and on other teams fumbled 46% less often ON the Patriots as compared to on their other teams (98 touches/fumble on NE, 67 on other teams).

The players who played the MOST often for the Patriots during this span fumbled the ball TWICE as frequently on other teams as they did on the Patriots (107 touches/fumble on NE, 53 on other teams).

Individual players who played on the Patriots fumbled 88% more often after LEAVING the Patriots as they did when playing on the Patriots (105 touches/fumble on NE, 56 after NE on other teams).
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#1998270 - 02/25/15 10:19 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Stupendous Man
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Originally Posted By: Stupendous Man

Originally Posted By: edAudit
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)






Thanks Pale

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/deflated-f...fumble-numbers/

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blo...arly-impossible



There are some issues with those findings:


fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/your-guide-to-deflate-gateballghai-related-statistical-analyses/


I havent been paying attention, but has anyone actually gone and filled up a football to the minimum, taken it outside to roughly the same temp as the game and seen how long (if ever) it took to deflate to whatever they were when the league pulled them?


"Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong were outliers." So now we knoe the Patriots were on Roids. shocked laugh

Based upon this and the reporting of this mess it is clear that
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#1998366 - 02/26/15 04:01 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By: Sound Tactic
See the problem with your strawman conspiracy is that from the very first number (1) none of that was needed to suspect the Pats of cheating then testing it. The only thing that was needed was for one colts player to intercept the ball. This guy has been playing football for a long time and noticed something so egregiously wrong with the ball. All he did was said something. Bang 2-6 no longer matter.
except that said intercepting player has publicly stated he didn't notice anything about the ball. Hmmmm.
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