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#201918 - 06/18/04 09:05 PM
Re: The Media
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New Poster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 13
Deep South
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There are other things that could have been done, some of which we interrupted by attacking, that would have been more effective with less monetary and human cost.
Anon - Do you really feel that the measures taken prior to the war were successful in preventing the deaths of innocents?
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It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off.
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#201919 - 06/18/04 09:06 PM
Re: The Media
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Gold Star
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 372
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#201920 - 06/18/04 09:07 PM
Re: The Media
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100 Club
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 234
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Always the easiest thing in the world to cry racism. I gues that's the only level of debate I will get from you. The information I was relaying were from two well researched and documented text, What Went Wrong? and The Crisis of Islam. They were written by Bernard Lewis a widely respected historian of the Middle East on the faculty of Princton, long known as a hotbed of racists. most of the supporting information came from Arab or Turkish texts, as Prof. Lewis is also a student of languages. I guess it is much easier hurling epitaphs than it is to read and research. I should have expected no better.
BTW I don't think it is ethnocentric to say what I said in the the way I said it. When you are speaking of Arab and Islamic extremists, you use the experts in that area and you can speak in blunt terms. These persons are fundamentalist in the sense that they go back to the words of the original texts. Do all muslims practice this brand of Islam? Not at all. If we were talking of extreme christion splinters, I would look for information from experts on such movements as aryanism and the "christian identity" movements. We were not talking of them. We would have to go that extreme to compare with the islammic fundamentalists because we have no other comparables of extremism. If what we call fundamentalist christians were to be comparable, I suppose they would have to be stoning adulterers in the streets, prohibitting the eating of pork on pain of death, etc. It was a punishable offense to fly a kite in Afghanistan. So, in summary, I do not think it is ethnocentric to speak correctly and directly about the topic at hand.
Further, if you wish to debate, debate. Don't present shallow slogans. If that is all you are capable of, I don't wish to speak with you. That is why I object to the use of the anonymous switch. If I comment, even though you may not know who I am, you will always know it is me. Have the courage to stand up for your own beliefs and debate them furiously. If you don't have that capability, at least let the rest of us know so that we can decline to sortie with somone who is clearly just a hack. If your only goal is regime change, understand that the only goal of the Beerhall Putsch was regime change. If you don't understand the reference, do the research, I think you may figure it out. JMO
Last edited by QuestionQuest; 06/19/04 03:12 AM.
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My opinions should not be taken as legal advice and I do not speak for my employer.
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#201923 - 06/18/04 09:28 PM
Re: The Media
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Gold Star
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 372
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Thank you Jason, I wish for every negative story that comes out we could get a positive one in the media.
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#201924 - 06/18/04 09:59 PM
Re: The Media
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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God Bless America! Support our President! Support our troops! We are at war against Terrorists and terrorism not any particular country, government, or religion please stop dividing our country and join the effort to preserve America for our children.
p.s. Vote Republican and God please forgive those that committed such atrocities against Mr. Johnson!!!
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#201925 - 06/18/04 10:13 PM
Re: The Media
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Gold Star
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 372
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At times I wonder why God does not just wipe us all off the face of the planet...I'm glad He forgives, it's a bit harder for me to. My thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Johnson's family.
Last edited by blvsinangels; 06/18/04 10:13 PM.
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#201926 - 06/19/04 03:47 AM
Re: The Media
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100 Club
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 234
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See my post above. I come from a yellow dog democrat family. If you wish to debate, we'll debate. I hope you are not so foolish as to believe the news releases. Perhaps we can talk.
_________________________
My opinions should not be taken as legal advice and I do not speak for my employer.
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#201927 - 06/19/04 09:12 AM
Re: The Media
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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"I guess it is much easier hurling epitaphs..."
I think you meant "epithets" (An abusive or contemptuous word or phrase), not "epitaphs" (An inscription on a tombstone in memory of the one buried there). Although, with the way the Bush administration is waging this "war", there are many more epitaphs around.
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#201928 - 06/19/04 03:57 PM
Re: The Media
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Quote:
If you wish to debate, we'll debate.
QQ, don't bother. Anon does drive-by libel of the Bush admin. and that's it. I try to set the record straight not for him/her, but for the benefit of any readers that don't know better. You'll notice anon never answers my specific points, just makes another reference to Bush as a murderer or racist.
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#201929 - 06/21/04 02:35 PM
Re: The Media
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100 Club
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 234
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Actually, epitaph is an appropriate usage here, as "racist", "sexist", etc., when insincerely, or unthoughtfully hurled, are usually meant to kill and be the last words of a discussion. Apparently the tactic is that when you have nothing insightful, instructive, or constructive to say, do whatever is in your means to silence anyone who does. In any event, this thread has produced no useful dialogue. There is evidently nothing I can learn from you, and evidently nothing you will learn from others. This makes continued interaction with you useless and a waste of time. I believe that I am done here.
BTW, Jokerman: Thanks, but you still try to reach people. Patience, however, is not endless.
Last edited by QuestionQuest; 06/21/04 02:37 PM.
_________________________
My opinions should not be taken as legal advice and I do not speak for my employer.
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#201930 - 06/21/04 04:35 PM
Re: The Media
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,357
A Grant Wood painting.
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It appears as though a few of you are having some trouble w/ an anon. I can relate to your difficulties.
With regard to the media, I find that the press provides a useful reality check. If I find that I believe what is being said, I need to reevaluate. I consider myself to be a conservative in values that promotes a progressive agenda. We can do better in education and healthcare. It will take more than just money to do it.
With regard to the Iraq war, I do not believe we are getting non-biased reporting. This does not surprise me. Should it?
Torture is an ugly thing. There are some circumstances in which it may be a necessity. Don’t tell me about it, just do it and do it quietly.
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The opinions expressed are what you can expect for the price paid.
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#201931 - 06/21/04 05:02 PM
Re: The Media
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Torture is an ugly thing. There are some circumstances in which it may be a necessity. Don’t tell me about it, just do it and do it quietly.
I totally disagree. Torture is an inhumance thing to do, and there are no circumstances that make it a necssity. Don't do it at all.
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#201933 - 06/21/04 06:23 PM
Re: The Media
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture is an ugly thing. There are some circumstances in which it may be a necessity. Don’t tell me about it, just do it and do it quietly.
I totally disagree. Torture is an inhumance thing to do, and there are no circumstances that make it a necssity. Don't do it at all.
There are no circumstances? You have captured an individual that has the information that will allow you to prevent an event like 9/11. I can say, without hesitation, that all means should be employed in getting that information.
I don’t care for capital punishment. Go figure.
No, even in this situation, there are other means to get the information. Torture is immoral and should not be used. Instead of torture, try tricking them. Drug them, knock them out, plant a bug in their butt to listen in on them, I don't care, but we are better than that... or at least we should be. Torture is for terrorists.
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#201934 - 06/21/04 06:34 PM
Re: The Media
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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M-A
If your family were buried in a box somewhere, with oxygen running out, and law enforcement had the culprit in their possession would you advocate torturing him to get him to tell them where where your family is?
I don't know the answer to this ethical question; I am just posing it for discussion.
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#201935 - 06/21/04 06:38 PM
Re: The Media
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
M-A
If your family were buried in a box somewhere, with oxygen running out, and law enforcement had the culprit in their possession would you advocate torturing him to get him to tell them where where your family is?
I don't know the answer to this ethical question; I am just posing it for discussion.
I wouldn't. Instead I would turn to God and ask him to help in finding them. I would never ask for anyone to be tortured. (Or executed if they weren't found, died, and he was being prosecuted and I had the opportunity to ask for or plead against the death penalty.)
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#201936 - 06/21/04 06:40 PM
Re: The Media
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Since 9/11, I have read several articles and opinion pieces on this. I find merit in both positions. Do you commit one inhumane act to prevent another grand-scale inhumane event? The question is, is it worth it worth it so society to sustain a major loss of life in order to maintain an ethical standard? I'm glad the decision is not mine to make. My sympathies are with M-A: we are not barbarians and do not torture, no matter the worth of information that might be obtained. There are things that are worse than death. I am afraid, however, that with thousands of innocent lives in the balance, my sensibilities would go the other direction.
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#201938 - 06/21/04 06:42 PM
Re: The Media
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
Quote:
M-A
If your family were buried in a box somewhere, with oxygen running out, and law enforcement had the culprit in their possession would you advocate torturing him to get him to tell them where where your family is?
I don't know the answer to this ethical question; I am just posing it for discussion.
I wouldn't. Instead I would turn to God and ask him to help in finding them. I would never ask for anyone to be tortured. (Or executed if they weren't found, died, and he was being prosecuted and I had the opportunity to ask for or plead against the death penalty.)
From you above post, I assume that you would approve of less than nice tactics that fall just short of torture. So, where is the line between coercion and torture?
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#201939 - 06/21/04 06:42 PM
Re: The Media
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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I had a hard time following your last sentence, Michael, are you opposed to the death penalty? (I think that's what I understand.)
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#201940 - 06/21/04 07:13 PM
Re: The Media
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Kudos to this nation's bleeding-heart media for slanting their choice of stories for the Iraq conflict and the war on terror. Thousands upon thousands of our troops and troops from other countries are there at risk making progress..progress not seen there in many years. Where are THOSE stories......?? Has anyone asked that question?
The "main stream" media is trying to sway the election in favor of Kerry. They are going to go out of their way to show this administration in a bad light. People should broaden their news sources. I watch CNN, Fox, and the 3 major networks. I also read the New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, and my local state papers. I also occasionally read the LA times, and try to read a british paper at least once a month. I listen to liberal and conservative radio while I'm in the car. This gives me a very broad spectrum to base my views on.
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#201941 - 06/21/04 08:23 PM
Re: The Media
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
I had a hard time following your last sentence, Michael, are you opposed to the death penalty? (I think that's what I understand.)
My apologies. What I was trying to say was that I would also be opposed to the death penalty if indeed I was in this situation and my loved ones perished and he was convicted and the choice was death or life in prison...
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#201942 - 06/21/04 11:10 PM
Re: The Media
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I have a few words for the original left wing "Anon" who thinks America is the cause of evil around the world.
As a moderate Muslim (if there is anything as such) let me tell you something and give my opinion on this crap that you have been arguing about. You have no idea what you are dealing with, non-whatsoever. Our holy book teaches us that there should be only one religion in the world - nothing else, and anyone who stands in its way has two options - convert or die - there is no middle ground. Period.
Now, I have read both the Old and the New Testament of the bible and if one lived by the Old Testament, your will probably have to stone your wife to death if she wears that little red dress. Thanks to the New Testament made, things became easier. With the Koran, there is no new testament and everything is taken in the literal sense. When it says women are chattels for use by men and reproduction of future linage – that’s how we are to take it.
Have you ever stopped and wondered why no prominent Muslim ever condemns these killings? It is because that a majority supports the cause, that's why. And to those of us, who marry outside the religion and are citizens of USA, we are equally at risk of being beheaded because we are also infidels - so we just tow the line.
Americans like you are making a fool of yourselves by falling for the lie of the media, which is actually supporting the cause of the radicals. The best tool these radical have is not weapons, but the 1st Amendment Rights under the US Constitution. This is the greatest tool that will be used to further the cause of the radicals. Just look what happened in Michigan, where the city council ruled that the Muslim call to prayer done 5 times over a loudspeaker is a 1st amendment right – Have you lived beside a mosque? Just hang on, it’s coming to a town near you and you will be able to nothing but stand like an impotent fool when those megaphones start reciting the call to prayer starting at 5 am in the morning.
Listen to this loud and clear - MUSLIMS WILL RULE THE WORLD AS IS PREDICTED THE KORAN - and that is what the radicals are out to achieve, unless the radicals are destroyed before they can do the harm.
The only chance we have is educating the little ones who are in schools – up to grade 5/6 level maybe – the rest are a gone case for this generation. So if you are looking for a quick fix in Iraq or the middle East, I’ll tell you to wake up and tune on the TV – because, in my opinion the beheadings will continue – be it Bush or Kerry as the president.
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