Skip to content
BOL Conferences
Learn More - Click Here!

New Reply Thread Options
#2029857 - 07/27/15 04:02 PM CTR Loan Payoff
Anonymous
Unregistered

Borrower sold vehicle for $11,500, was paid cash. Loan payoff was $7,500 or so. He started counting it out and decided it was taking too long so just handed the whole stack to the teller. The remaining funds were given back to him and never ran through an account.

I've read several other discussions on this, and based on those, the relevant amount is the cash used to make the payoff, not the total handed to us, in this situation. If that is the case, I don't have a CTR to file.

How would you treat this?

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2029860 - 07/27/15 04:09 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
ACBbank Offline
Power Poster
ACBbank
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,308
New York City
Just so I understand the situation correctly. Customer walks in with $11,500 in cash with the intent to pay off a $7,500 loan. Customer begins to count the cash, gets annoyed and requests the teller count out $7,500 in cash to pay off the loan and return the remaining $4M in cash?

If the above is correct, no CTR is needed.
_________________________
"100 victories in 100 battles isnt the most skillful. Subduing the other's military w/o battle is the most skillful." Sun-Tzu

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2029872 - 07/27/15 04:47 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered

Yes. The caveat being the transaction was run as follows, resulting in it showing up on the cash transaction reports.

Cash in, $11,500, loan payoff $7,500, cash back $4,000. Since they used the cash dispenser to do the counting instead of doing it by hand (plus verify the bills were all good). So we have it on a report, and I can certainly note what happened, but it gives me reason to pause at least.

The $4,000 given back to him would have all been bills he originally handed us, for whatever that may matter or not.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2029951 - 07/27/15 07:37 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Cape Codder Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 413
I would have to disagree. Teller received and processed $11,500 cash in, with $4,000 cash out. Over $10,000 was given to teller; file the CTR ($7,500 loan pmt/$4,000 currency exchange)
_________________________
Nothing difficult is ever easy.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2029956 - 07/27/15 07:54 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
I agree. The cash crossed the counter and was under the bank's control. It's a loan payment and cash exchange.

If there's nothing to document the fact that the $4,000 crossed the counter, the bank could get away with no CTR. But in the narrative of this scenario, there's a record of $11,500 being handled by the bank.
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2029960 - 07/27/15 07:57 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered

Thanks all. Never done a CTR with currency exchange involved, and falsely assumed it was only regarding foreign exchanges. I've now seen otherwise in FinCEN's guidance.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030002 - 07/27/15 09:29 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Richard Insley Offline
10K Club
Richard Insley
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 10,158
Toano, VA
Although it's been 20 years since I had to make a CTR filing decision, I doubt anything has changed that would affect my thinking. Regardless of the audit trail created by the bank's recordkeeping systems, I don't see a currency exchange here...and if there's no currency exchange to aggregate with the loan payoff, then this event does not reach the $10,000 reporting threshold.

In this case the same currency is always on the counter. Only one transaction took place--the $7,500 loan payoff. The other $4,000 was present and inspected...but it never became a debit or credit to any bank account. "Look-alike" transactions have always been a problem for CTR filers, and that's all you have here. (If something has changed, please feel free to squash this post like a bug. :))
_________________________
...gone fishing.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030020 - 07/28/15 12:32 AM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
rlcarey Offline
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 82,482
Galveston, TX
If all the bank needed was $7,500 for the pay-off - why did the teller keep counting after that amount was reached??? Something does not make a whole lot of sense here.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030071 - 07/28/15 02:06 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered

Nobody here would physically count out that much cash being deposited, they would only count it back to the customer to satisfy them. They stick it in the cash recycler and let the machine do all the work. He didn't indicate how much he had, teller assumed it was going to be relatively close to the payoff, and assumed incorrectly. Cash did leave the counter, even if the same cash spit back out of the machine.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030076 - 07/28/15 02:15 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
rlcarey Offline
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 82,482
Galveston, TX
Then file and be done and there will never be anyone that can question it again.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030090 - 07/28/15 02:50 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
ACBbank Offline
Power Poster
ACBbank
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,308
New York City
Let me ask a question here. How are we completing this CTR exactly? Are we calling the remaining $4M a currency exchange?
_________________________
"100 victories in 100 battles isnt the most skillful. Subduing the other's military w/o battle is the most skillful." Sun-Tzu

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030122 - 07/28/15 03:38 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered

Yes, ACB. I referenced this discussion, which pushed me to the FinCEN FAQ referenced in the second post.

http://www.bankersonline.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1689313

Originally Posted By Ted Dreyer
"6. When is box 33 checked?
Check box 33 if the reportable transaction is an exchange of currency, e.g., foreign currency exchanged for U.S. dollars, or U.S. dollars exchanged for foreign currency. Also included are exchanges of one foreign currency for another foreign currency, or small denomination bills for larger denomination bills (whether the bills are U.S. currency or foreign currency), or vice versa."

http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/pdf/faq08122005.pdf

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030145 - 07/28/15 04:21 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
ACBbank Offline
Power Poster
ACBbank
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,308
New York City
I understand that, I just don't know if I agree with it (Not the FinCEN Guidance, just the transaction). We don't know if a currency exchange actually took place.

I guess it's irrelevant at this point. It's probably better to play it safe and file the CTR.
_________________________
"100 victories in 100 battles isnt the most skillful. Subduing the other's military w/o battle is the most skillful." Sun-Tzu

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030330 - 07/28/15 09:08 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered

Anon2 sez: I totally disagree that the CTR is required. Stupidity (writing out $11,500 in records when it was $7,500) is not a reason to file a CTR. Unfortunately in order to avoid this conversation in exams, I'd agree with filing the CTR anyway!

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030489 - 07/29/15 04:11 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Cape Codder Offline
Gold Star
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 413
Originally Posted By Anonymous
Anon2 sez: Stupidity (writing out $11,500 in records when it was $7,500)


IMO teller protected bank and self by creating an audit trail of the cash in/out. Further, cash handed to teller followed by cash handed back by teller = currency exchange; same vs. different bills/denominations doesn't matter.
_________________________
Nothing difficult is ever easy.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030518 - 07/29/15 05:08 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Anonymous
Anonymous
Unregistered

In our system it would flag the transaction for a CTR because of the $11,500 cash in tag, regardless of the net transaction. Our teller system would pop up a CTR on the screen to be completed when the Enter button was pushed. I agree with previous posters to file the CTR.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#2030519 - 07/29/15 05:09 PM Re: CTR Loan Payoff Cape Codder
Richard Insley Offline
10K Club
Richard Insley
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 10,158
Toano, VA
Originally Posted By Cape Codder
same vs. different bills/denominations doesn't matter
It does if you consult Webster. "exchange: an occurrence in which people give things of similar value to each other : the act of giving or taking one thing in return for another thing." In the case at hand, there is only one set of "things." None of the teller's similar "things" ever leave the cash drawer and none of the customer's 4,000 excess "things" end up in the cash drawer.
_________________________
...gone fishing.

Return to Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
Quick Reply:
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled




Moderator:  MagicCity, P*Q, Truffle Royale