Skip to content
BOL Conferences
Thread Options
#2114522 - 01/18/17 02:36 PM Is a CTR Required?
complofcr Offline
100 Club
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 183
SE USA
I need help thinking through a situation:
Customer A comes into the bank with $9,000 cash to purchase an official check with Customer B as the remitter. Teller calls Customer B to confirm he wants to be listed as the remitter. Customer B comes in later in the day to deposit $7,000 cash into his account. Would we file a CTR on Customer B as the beneficiary with Customer A as one of the transactors? Or would we not file at all since neither customer came in with over $10,000 in cash?

Return to Top
BSA/AML/CIP/OFAC Forum
#2114533 - 01/18/17 02:53 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
edAudit Offline
Power Poster
edAudit
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,796
You are here
How could customer B be the remitter when he did not purchase the o/c?
_________________________
Opinions can be considered as coming from anywhere but my employer.

CAMS


Return to Top
#2114558 - 01/18/17 04:23 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
Wildcat Rampage Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 95
Kentucky - Home of the 8 time ...
"By or on behalf of"....

In my opinion, if you have the belief that the official check was "on behalf of" customer B, then I'd say that transaction, when aggregated with the second transaction which was "by" customer B would reach $16,000 and would become reportable. Just my two cents though without doing any research to vet it.
_________________________
Wildcat basketball isn't a matter of life and death, it's much more important than that.

Return to Top
#2114570 - 01/18/17 04:57 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
RockChucker, CAMS Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,700
The Country
If you indeed allow customer A to have customer B be the remitter then yes I would file as I have knowledge that customer B (by or on behalf of) benefited from both transactions. Customer B would have two sections, one 2a and one 2c and one section on customer A 2b.
_________________________
A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at him.
-David Brinkley

Return to Top
#2114573 - 01/18/17 05:04 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? RockChucker, CAMS
rlcarey Online
10K Club
rlcarey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 83,219
Galveston, TX
Originally Posted By RockChucker
Customer B would have two sections, one 2a and one 2c


NOTE: If more than one Item 2 option applies to a person involved in the transaction(s), complete only one Part I on that person with only one entry in Item 2. Select “Courier Service” if multiple options that include 2d “Courier service” apply. Select 2a “Person conducting transaction on own behalf” if options 2a, 2b, and 2c or options 2a and 2b or options 2a and 2c apply. Select 2b “Person conducting transaction for another” if both 2b and 2c apply.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com

Return to Top
#2114586 - 01/18/17 05:57 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
RockChucker, CAMS Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,700
The Country
Yes, good point Randy.

Our software program handles that part for us.
Last edited by RockChucker; 01/18/17 06:09 PM. Reason: second line
_________________________
A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at him.
-David Brinkley

Return to Top
#2114802 - 01/19/17 09:30 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? edAudit
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
Originally Posted By edAudit
How could customer B be the remitter when he did not purchase the o/c?

If I am the runner for a small grocery store and my task is to bring cash to the bank to purchase a cashier's check for $6,000 for the business to pay for a COD delivery of fruits and vegetables, I am not the remitter. I am the purchaser under FinCEN regulations for the purposes of the recordkeeping requirement on cash purchases of monetary instruments, but the remitter is the grocery store. The grocery store is buying the check through me, its agent.

Your systems may equate the two roles, but they are very different.

Based on questions in this forum, there may be systems out there that use "benefactor" to identify the person on whose behalf a transaction is completed, even though benefactor has a completely different meaning.
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

Return to Top
#2114834 - 01/20/17 11:37 AM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
edAudit Offline
Power Poster
edAudit
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,796
You are here
If I am the runner for a small grocery store and my task is to bring cash to the bank to purchase a cashier's check for $6,000 for the business to pay for a COD delivery of fruits and vegetables,

One of the many reasons why most banks (at least in NY) have stopped issuing Cashiers checks for cash.
_________________________
Opinions can be considered as coming from anywhere but my employer.

CAMS


Return to Top
#2114882 - 01/20/17 03:15 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
BrianC Offline
Power Poster
BrianC
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,685
Illinois
Just a reminder that if the Bank makes the runner deposit the cash into the grocery store account and also allows the runner to purchase the cashier's check with a check drawn on the grocery store in the same visit the transaction is still subject to the record keeping requirements. - From the BSA Exam Manual...

Indirect Currency Purchases of Monetary Instruments

Banks may implement a policy requiring customers who are deposit accountholders and who want to purchase monetary instruments in amounts between $3,000 and $10,000 with currency to first deposit the currency into their deposit accounts. Nothing within the BSA or its implementing regulations prohibits a bank from instituting such a policy.

However, FinCEN takes the position108 that when a customer purchases a monetary instrument in amounts between $3,000 and $10,000 using currency that the customer first deposits into the customer’s account, the transaction is still subject to the recordkeeping requirements of 31 CFR 1010.415. This requirement applies whether the transaction is conducted in accordance with a bank’s established policy or at the request of the customer. Generally, when a bank sells monetary instruments to deposit accountholders, the bank will already maintain most of the information required by 31 CFR 1010.415 in the normal course of its business.
_________________________
Sola Gratia, Sola Fides, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria!
www.tcaregs.com

Return to Top
#2114935 - 01/20/17 04:24 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
And to point out the exception, if the purchase is made by the runner on behalf of the customer (his employer, for example), and the runner doesn't have a deposit account with you, you have to include the personal information on the runner as a non-depositor in the recordkeeping for the cash purchase of the monetary instrument.
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

Return to Top
#2114943 - 01/20/17 04:37 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
happyauditor Offline
Platinum Poster
happyauditor
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 812
NY
from Brian C's post...

"However, FinCEN takes the position108 that when a customer purchases a monetary instrument in amounts between $3,000 and $10,000 using currency that the customer first deposits into the customer’s account, the transaction is still subject to the recordkeeping requirements of 31 CFR 1010.415. This requirement applies whether the transaction is conducted in accordance with a bank’s established policy or at the request of the customer. Generally, when a bank sells monetary instruments to deposit accountholders, the bank will already maintain most of the information required by 31 CFR 1010.415 in the normal course of its business."

How important is it to be able to easily and readily identify and provide to regulators (or whomever) a comprehensive listing of monetary instrument sales purchased in this particular manner (cash deposited first and then withdrawn to purchase the MI), including the purchaser's information?
_________________________
* My opinion is not necessarily that of my employer.

Return to Top
#2114961 - 01/20/17 05:29 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? happyauditor
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
As the record retention requirement applies even though the monetary instrument was not actually purchased with cash, it is essential that the bank be able to identify the transactions where it took place. I have seen the FDIC cite the failure as a violation in the written report...
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.

Return to Top
#2114981 - 01/20/17 06:02 PM Re: Is a CTR Required? complofcr
happyauditor Offline
Platinum Poster
happyauditor
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 812
NY
Thank Ken, I agree. Others, not so much...and then I second guess and think maybe I am being too strict in my thinking, since we essentially have the information for these, just not as easily and quickly identifiable since they do not hit the automated logging report (system limitations) if processed in that manner. Thankfully it is not our policy to require the cash to be deposited first (so it does not happen that often), but there are some customers who do it for their own reasons and then immediately withdraw for the MI purchase. Bottom line though, I feel we need to be able to easily identify these and I am glad to have concurrence by someone such as yourself.
Last edited by happyauditor; 01/20/17 06:05 PM.
_________________________
* My opinion is not necessarily that of my employer.

Return to Top

Moderator:  Andy_Z