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#2123043 - 03/22/17 01:34 PM CTR question
FFBT Offline
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We have a business customer whose owners also have multiple personal accounts at our institution. One of the business owners (who is an authorized signer on the business account) comes in to make the daily deposits. She deposits 9500 into the business account and $1000 into her and her husbands personal account.

Our external BSA auditors are telling us on the $1000 deposit into the personal account, the co owner should have been listed. Is this really true? The total going into the personal account did not exceed the $10000.00 mark so why would we list the co owner. The aggregate deposit between the business and personal exceeded that amount by one person so that is why the CTR was conducted.

What are other banks doing or being told?

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#2123049 - 03/22/17 01:50 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
Midwest BSA Offline
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If I'm understanding your question correctly, the business, the person bringing in the deposit for the business (who also happens to be the owner of the personal account) AND the joint owner of the personal account would need to be listed on the CTR. The logic behind this is because the joint owner also benefits from the funds being deposited. I don't think FinCEN would care that the husband is "only" effected by $1,000.

Our FI would list the hubs.

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#2123050 - 03/22/17 02:00 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
FFBT Offline
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The person bringing in the money is a the owner of the business as well as an owner on the joint personal account.

I guess I don't understand the logic because there was not over $10,000 that was deposited into the personal account. So why list the husband.

The reason we have to file the CTR is because the total deposit into the business and personal aggregate over $10,000. You only file CTRs over $10,000. so why would you list the husband when the funds deposited was only $1000.

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#2123055 - 03/22/17 02:14 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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#2123059 - 03/22/17 02:36 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
bcompliance Offline
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The total amount that the owner brought in was over $10,000. In order to complete the CTR accurately, you need to list anyone who benefitted from that reportable transaction(s). Since they deposited $1,000 into their joint peronal account, the husband has access to the funds, therefore benefitted from the transaction. He should be listed on the CTR.
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#2123063 - 03/22/17 02:42 PM Re: CTR question Elwood P. Dowd
FFBT Offline
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That question applies to two people depositing money of different amounts into the same account. That does not help in my scenario.

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#2123064 - 03/22/17 02:42 PM Re: CTR question bcompliance
FFBT Offline
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But he only benefited from the $1000 which is not over the $10,000 threshold.

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#2123065 - 03/22/17 02:44 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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It applies if five people deposit cash to a joint account. It applies if one person deposits cash to a joint account. Your auditors are simply right...
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#2123067 - 03/22/17 02:48 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
John Burnett Offline
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First, you include both deposits because they were conducted by the same individual. Because they total over $10,000, you file a CTR.

When you file the CTR, you must identify the conductor (if you know who it is) and the persons on whose behalf the transactions were made. Wife is the conductor.

When a CTR is filed on a deposit to a joint account, you identify all of the joint owners as persons on whose behalf the deposit was made.

So, because you are reporting the deposit to the personal joint account as part of the CTR, you have to identify both joint owners of that account.

The business is listed checking box 2c
Wife is listed checking box 2a
Husband is listed checking box 2c
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#2123069 - 03/22/17 02:53 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
John Burnett Offline
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If on the same day, Husband deposited $500 to that same joint account, his deposit would not be reported. Why? Because it was not conducted by a person who conducted more than $10K in reportable transactions, nor was it made on behalf of a person (Husband or Wife) on whose behalf more than $10K in reportable transactions were conducted.

This analysis assumes that the business is a legal entity -- partnership, LLC or corporation.
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#2123071 - 03/22/17 03:02 PM Re: CTR question John Burnett
FFBT Offline
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Ok I understand that but in this case because the money in the joint Account was not over $10000.00 why would you list the husband. He didn't benefit from an amount over $10,000.00. Im assuming that doesn't matter in this case?

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#2123075 - 03/22/17 03:11 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
John Burnett Offline
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Follow the logic in my post. The key statement there is that when you report a deposit to a joint account, you list all the joint owners. You have to report the deposit to that account, so husband gets listed.

That's all there is to it.
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#2214739 - 06/01/19 04:00 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
MBTCompliance Offline
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Conductor brings in $9,970 for deposit into Corporation checking account

Same Conductor brings in $180 for deposit into Joint Personal checking account with Wife on the same business day

Beneficiary Wife is included on the CTR with Conductor Husband for a total CTR of $10,150 because she received benefit from $180 transaction he conducted on her behalf. Is that correct?

What if...the Wife had been Conductor of the $180 instead of the husband? Would there even be a need for a CTR at all since the Conductor only conducted $9,970 for the Corporation, and did not conduct more than $10,000? Or, do you add together what he conducted $9,970 and the $180 he received benefit from although conducted by the wife?

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#2214740 - 06/02/19 10:45 AM Re: CTR question FFBT
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$10,000 either conducted by or on behalf of. Neither occurred in your second scenario.
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#2214906 - 06/04/19 05:31 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
John Burnett Offline
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Let's try these statements on for size:
  1. If a person conducts cash transactions for which the total cash in or the total cash out exceeds $10,000, a CTR is filed identifying the conductor and each of the persons on whose behalf the transaction(s) are completed, even if those persons individually don't have a transaction or transactions of more than $10,000 conducted on their behalf.
  2. If a person has transactions aggregating more than $10,000 conducted on his/her/its behalf, a CTR is filed identifying the person on whose behalf the transaction(s) was/were conducted and each known conductor of those transactions.

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#2214920 - 06/04/19 06:59 PM Re: CTR question FFBT
John Burnett Offline
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