@RR - That's a tough one . . . . it would depend on if there was any sort of evidence that the creditor could point to in order to prove that it was put in the mail that day. If not, then I would say "No." It's a bit more obvious when the mail is delivered after closing hours that it came on that day versus if mail is sent after pick up. In other words, if employees come in and "new" mail is there in the morning that wasn't there yesterday, then, obviously, unless it came after midnight or something, it was delivered the prior day. Whereas, if an employee of the creditor dropped an envelope in the mail slot after scheduled pick up, then when the Postal employee picks it up the next day, it is not apparent whether it was actually dropped off after pick up on the night before, or whether it was put in the box that morning.

Bringing up an old subject... I understand the argument that if Sunday isn't a business day, then the app isn't received until Monday. And common sense would suggest this as well. But can anyone point in Reg Z where it says that an application can only be received on a business day? Since the app date isn't included in the count, the timing (3 business days after) wouldn't even consider the fact that the app date wasn't a business day.

You're confusing submission and receipt dates.
I can sit at home in my jammies on Sunday night and submit an application that will be dated Sunday.
But unless you're sititng in your office Sunday night, how is your bank going to receive it on Sunday?
The following is the definition of a business day from Regulation Z: Business day means a day on which the creditor's offices are open to the public for carrying on substantially all of its business functions

Unless I missed it, the rule never differentiates receipt versus submission. I cannot locate where it says a creditor cannot receive an application on a non-business day.

And I know it seems to make sense that a creditor cannot receive an application on a day when the creditor isn't open, but why would that matter. Perhaps, the goal of the rule is to always give creditors a minimum of three business days to disclose.

My issue is that I cannot find anything in the rule that suggests receipt can only occur on a business day.

I think if you receive an application on Sunday, then you've received it and would need to get an LE out on the 3rd business day after that.

It matters because you cannot receive something if you're not there to receive it. It's that plain and simple.

Business day chart

But isn't that adding an assumption? No where in the rule is this assumption made, again, that I could find. Is there anything in Reg Z that defines receipt date as needing to be a business day?

I understand everything you're saying, unfortunately, the rule doesn't appear to say that.

19(a)(1)(i) Time of Disclosures

3. Written application. Creditors may rely on RESPA and Regulation X (including any interpretations issued by the Bureau) in deciding whether a “written application” has been received. In general, Regulation X defines “application” to mean the submission of a borrower's financial information in anticipation of a credit decision relating to a federally related mortgage loan. See 12 CFR 1024.2(b). An application is received when it reaches the creditor in any of the ways applications are normally transmitted - by mail, hand delivery, or through an intermediary agent or broker. (See comment 19(b)-3 for guidance in determining whether or not the transaction involves an intermediary agent or broker.) If an application reaches the creditor through an intermediary agent or broker, the application is received when it reaches the creditor, rather than when it reaches the agent or broker.

Couple this with the Business Day receipt references and it's as close as you're going to get to what you're looking for.

Now I have a question for you. Why do you seem to want to say that an application is recieved on a day your bank isn't open for business as defined?

Because I don't want audit findings for being late on our disclosures. No matter how any organization defines "receipt" is irrelevant if an auditor disagrees. I am trying to determine the correct way to count, based on guidance in the rule.

To use the Written Application definition, you are still making an assumption that someone has to be there for the application to "reach the creditor". Isn't an online application submitted on Sunday, reaching the creditor at that time?

I think TR fully explained her interpretation, on which I agree. If you have a different interpretation, then develop your policies and procedures around those.

I do appreciate the feedback TR. I was just trying to find where I could point to in the regulation to make our LOS provider understand the industry standard. Right now I can't because I cannot find in the rule where this is defined. Perhaps the Written Application definition is the best thing, but I am not 100% it gets me where I need to be.

Thanks for the feedback and your time.

I took the question to be something like......on Sunday, 7-14-2019, John Q. Customer sees LO XYZ at church and hands him a completed TRID application (which LO XYZ, instead of saying "come by Monday at the bank and give this to me"....accepts). If this is what Tim Tam Tom meant, then i think the application was RECEIVED on 7-14-2019 and an LE would need to be out by 7-17-2019.

raitchjay - I don't think anyone has said differently in this thread, unless I missed it.

Which is your concern, auditor or LOS? And do you mean examiner instead of auditor, which I take to mean internal auditor?

Don't know what LOS you're using but all of them I've seen count from the date you enter.
The application has two signatures, the applicant and the LO's.
The LO's signature should be the receipt date which would be the application date for your system.

Both. Our LOS would make Wednesday the due date. This is my issue at hand... But, if we are going to change, we need to keep in mind what a regulator might think.

Randy......i didn't think anyone said anything differently per se....just that (and i apologize...i read thru it quickly) that scenario didn't seem to be the focus...instead it seemed to be "you can't receive it if you aren't open for business'.


Again, apologies if i'm missing the story of this thread.

Your LOS would make Wednesday the due date based on what?
An examiner is going to look at the definitions I gave you as the basis for determining receipt date which equals application date.
Real life example here: Applicant singed on June 15 but didn't deliver the application to the bank until July 8. The application date for Reg Z and Reg C is July 8.
How does this differ from the situation you're questioning?

The LOS would make Wednesday the due date based on the date the loan had all 6 pieces of data entered into the system.

The difference is that the borrower truly didn't deliver until July 8th and the data in our system could prove that. That data is what stops a rogue LO from sitting on applications and waiting until they can get to them to sign. I know that's not what you are suggesting, just going the opposite way of your scenario (where the borrower does submit on the 15th, but the LO doesn't sign until the 8th).

So your system is receiving an application on Sunday, I'll assume electronically.
But no real person at your bank is receiving that application as evidenced by signing it but you want to count that as the receipt date.
As Randy stated, there's nothing to prevent you from doing that.
You just need to develop policies and procedures to that end and follow them.

fwiw, I don't know of any banks that short themselves in the three days by counting a non-business day as the receipt date. But that's your choice.

Why not back that on up to Saturday [assuming not opened for business] and lose 2 days on the same theory.

This is a fascinating discussion and I agree that in general non-business days have not been counted as there hasn't been anyone to accept delivery of the application. And I think (I could be wrong) everyone here agrees that if an LO actually accepts an application on a non-business day that the institution has accepted the application and the clock starts.

I'm not arguing but want to explore the topic (I'm open to either point of view).

I think technology has given us a hybrid of situations and may be the area of concern that Tim Tam Tom is speaking to. That is a situation where the institution is at the very least giving the impression to the consumer that they have accepted the application due to how the institution's online application system works. If the institution configures their system to accept the 6 pieces of information and it implies at the end of the process that the customer has applied, such as "thanks for your application", couldn't the argument be made that the application was "received" or "accepted" by the institution. In this case the institution is doing it by automated means rather than an actual LO, but is still accepting an application.

Is it worth configuring your system to suppress (not allow entry) of one of the 6 or at the least giving language that makes it clear the application will be accepted on the next business day such as "your information has been received by an automated system and your application will be accepted on the next business day" or similar?

I think all of the online application systems I have seen in a demo allow you to configure to suppress one of the 6 to avoid triggering an application. I think this would resolve TimTamTom's concern...or is this just a much to do about nothing (I think this may be the prevailing thought).

I know this thread is now several months old, but I find that the simple question of when was an application received comes up a ton when it comes to email. Example, lets say all 6 TRID items get emailed to a loan officer on Tuesday, November 12th at 11 pm. Was it received November 12 or November 13 when the loan officer comes in the office?

It seems lots of people have different opinions as evidenced here in this thread. So I am not asking for an opinion on that.

My question is, has anyone asked CFPB their stance on it and received an answer they want to share?

Or is that not something that is acceptable to ask the CFPB? I am genuinely asking as I am not experienced enough to presume to ask CFPB anything. So I come to all yall super knowledgeable compliance gods and goddesses for help. : )

For us any application received on a non business day is considered received the next business day. Any application received on a business day after the bank closes for the day is considered received the next business day the bank is open.

If an application is put in our drop box at 11 PM or submitted via email at 11 PM we considered it received the next business day. The bank is not opened to the public at 11 PM to carry out its normal course of business.

(6) Business day means a day on which the creditor's offices are open to the public for carrying on substantially all of its business functions. . . . . . . .

This is also assuming that you actually accept applications via unencrypted e-mail, which is a very unsecure method for a customer to be transmitting personal financial information and should be highly discouraged. If you do accept such applications (either through procedure or practice), then you better have policies and procedures in place check people's e-mails for applications when they are not at the bank. If you accept them in that manner, then whether a LO opens their e-mail or not, the application would be considered received by the bank on the next business day - per Dan's explanation.