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#2188079 - 08/06/18 01:41 PM Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d
SeanG Offline
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Joined: Feb 2018
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My supervisor and I have recently had a discussion on this and she suggested getting input from others here at BankersOnine. This issue came up in a recent FDIC audit, when the auditor noted that we had documented where a withdrawal was made from a business account for the purpose of purchasing a vehicle for the business but the business was not listed as a benefactor on the CTR. My supervisor was always taught that the benefactor is whoever walks out the door with the cash, regardless of what type of account the money is withdrawn from. My stance is that if we do have knowledge of what the money is being used for and it is directly tied back to the business, then why not add the business as a benefactor? Some instances we have some contention on are:

purchases of equipment for company use when that is the stated purpose
purchases of equipment but it is unclear whether it is specifically for the business
large w/d's by churches/religious organizations when stated purpose is for mission trips/charitable events

We appreciate any input and thank everyone in advance for their time.

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#2188086 - 08/06/18 02:14 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
rlcarey Offline
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So, if I come in and get money for payroll for my company every two weeks, you are going to but me as the "on behalf of"?? There is no "benefactor" reported on a CTR.
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#2188103 - 08/06/18 04:29 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
BrianC Offline
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There is person conducting the transaction and person on whose behalf a transaction is conducted. The question is, "Did the person making the withdrawal conduct the transaction on behalf of the business."

In Randy's example, if I am cashing a paycheck, then I am cashing the check on my own behalf and that's it. FAQ #24 introduces the concept of "knowledge" for withdrawals from a joint account. Although a business account is not a joint account, if we have knowledge that a withdrawal is conducted on the business' behalf to purchase equipment, for petty cash, to fund and ATM, etc. then it is appropriate to identify the person making the withdrawal as "conducted on behalf of another" and the business as "person on whose behalf the transaction is conducted."

I agree with the FDIC that if we have knowledge, the business should be included.
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#2188105 - 08/06/18 04:45 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
rlcarey Offline
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Brain, accept I meant I am cashing a check to fund the company payroll, not an individual paycheck made payable to me.
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#2188167 - 08/06/18 07:50 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
John Burnett Offline
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RANT WARNING!

Benefactor - Noun. A person who gives money or other help to a person or cause. Synonyms patron, supporter, backer, sponsor.

The terms to describe parties to a reportable transaction:

Conductor - the individual completing the transaction with the financial institution
Person on whose behalf transaction completed - The party for whom the transaction was conducted. This party is not a benefactor or a beneficiary.

END OF RANT
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#2188168 - 08/06/18 07:53 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d rlcarey
John Burnett Offline
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Originally Posted By rlcarey
Brain, accept I meant I am cashing a check to fund the company payroll, not an individual paycheck made payable to me.
Brain? Well, yeah!
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#2188174 - 08/06/18 08:17 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
BrianC Offline
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I appreciate Randy being a benefactor of such a kind typo!
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#2188179 - 08/06/18 08:35 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
John Burnett Offline
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It couldn't have been bestowed on a more worthy beneficiary.
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#2188187 - 08/06/18 08:49 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
rlcarey Offline
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blush laugh
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#2188200 - 08/06/18 11:42 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d John Burnett
Princess Romeo Offline

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Originally Posted By John Burnett
RANT WARNING!

Benefactor - Noun. A person who gives money or other help to a person or cause. Synonyms patron, supporter, backer, sponsor.

The terms to describe parties to a reportable transaction:

Conductor - the individual completing the transaction with the financial institution
Person on whose behalf transaction completed - The party for whom the transaction was conducted. This party is not a benefactor or a beneficiary.

END OF RANT


ADDITIONAL RANT WARNING!!!

You have an FDIC EXAM, not an audit, and you are dealing with EXAMINERS, not auditors.
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#2188301 - 08/07/18 07:28 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
TryingtoComply Offline
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Princess,

This drives me crazy too. My other favorite is when someone doesn't know who their primary regulator is. Drives me nuts! LOL!
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#2188309 - 08/07/18 07:46 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
rlcarey Offline
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A little harsh on a first time poster don't you think (me included). I hope they feel like they can return. frown
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#2188312 - 08/07/18 07:55 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
TryingtoComply Offline
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Maybe we are all stressed out waiting for FinCEN to make their announcement regarding auto-renewing CDs?

Not a good excuse......:(
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#2188327 - 08/07/18 08:25 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
John Burnett Offline
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Yeah, we did get a little testy there, didn't we. I'll get down off my high horse and apologize for my tone. To be fair, for some bank employees (those not in management, compliance or auditing), there is little difference between an audit and an exam. Both are seen as disruptive, with people you don't know in the building with visitor tags or similar "passes."

I also recognize that English is a changing language. New words are added and new meanings are assigned to old words. But I don't think there's a dictionary out there that is ready to accept "benefactor" as the equivalent of "person on whose behalf a transaction is conducted."
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#2188347 - 08/07/18 09:45 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
Heidi C Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
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Wow! More answers on the terminology then the question itself! I asked my employee to post the question, partly as a training exercise. He and I were discussing the issue and I said let’s get some other opinions. Post it on Bankers Online. Not sure I want to know what he learned. 😊 Thank you to those that helped with the answer.

To be clear- right or wrong, in our software it asks for the Benefactor and Transactor. I understand it may not be the "proper" word, but it is the field we complete and the term the FDIC EXAMINER used. Maybe you have not complete a CTR since we had to type them. Yes FDIC has EXAMINERS not Auditor but really???

To answer this question- “ So, if I come in and get money for payroll for my company every two weeks, you are going to put me as the "on behalf of"?? There is no "benefactor" reported on a CTR”…………….. If an individual came in with a check from a business we always used the conductor on conducting on owns behalf. Moving forward if we have knowledge that it is for or to “benefit” business (to purchase a truck, or to fund payroll) we will list the conductor and the Business as -Person(s) on Whose Behalf Transaction(s) Is Conducted.

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#2188375 - 08/08/18 01:30 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
BookWormGirl Offline
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Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 30
Upper Midwest
Heidi, our software too says "benefactor," and it has caused its share of confusion for staff. The way our process used to work, our frontline supervisory staff that did the initial and secondary review of the CTR only reviewed the electronic version, and therefore only saw the "benefactor" terminology. After countless requests for corrections/edits prior to submission for situations like your payroll example, we finally sat down with them and showed them the end product: the printed CTR. Once they saw the phrasing on that states "Person(s) on Whose Behalf the Transaction(s) Is Conducted," it made much more sense to them why we were asking for the changes we had requested.

Since then we've had a few more conversations, but those have been more about oddball scenarios that don't necessarily fit into the "square peg/square hole" most of our CTRs fit. The idea of "benefactor" vs. "on behalf of" has really cleared itself up for us!
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#2188423 - 08/08/18 04:17 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
SeanG Offline
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Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 2
First of all, I do want to say thank you for the information and corrections in terminology for all those who posted. I will say that yes I am newer to this division of banking and work in a small community organization where many words are often used interchangeably. I can understand how people are different and how misuse of terms can seem like nails on the chalk board for some. We live and we learn.

Yeah, it discouraged me a bit that more responses seemed to want to focus more on terminology that offering any advice or insight into the issue we were asking about. It will not stop me from posting again if we feel we need clarification or advice.

I also want to personally thank Randy for his question on payroll that got us to think about that avenue and Brian for his insight on the overall issue. I appreciate your help.

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#2188453 - 08/08/18 06:50 PM Re: Listing Businesses as Benefactors on CTR's for w/d SeanG
LiveFunLife Offline
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 91
If you have not been in this field for more than 5 years I am seeing a trend to use some words incorrectly or with assumed value as the same as another word with a similar feel (myself included). It is a novice thing that should be pointed out by people with experience. Sometimes it makes it easier with sarcasm, jokes, and other fun things. It is easy though to feel to comfortable and accidentally be mean without intention.

I have also seen numerous people pat themselves on the backs and still use terminology wrong and take pride in being amazing and not understand simple things that can be learned .

On this site I am starting to understand a bit more. Sometimes we lose ourselves and need help. Ask these people anything and they can usually come up with something good.

IMPORTANT
if they give you grief do two things in this order.

1. Remember they are normal people working a job just as stressful and they aren't paid for it.

2. Point out there shortcomings and say it didn't help. They are professionals. Grounding them should result with grace and a new answer.

Just a thought and 5 min of free time from a desk in the mitten.

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