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#2210109 - 04/02/19 04:14 PM Race - they aren't sure
ADN Offline
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We took a face to face application and the applicants literally said they did not know what race they were. However the did marked Hispanic and Peruvian for ethnicity. How is the loan officer supposed to mark a race, if the applicants don't even know what they are?

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#2210113 - 04/02/19 04:42 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
raitchjay Offline
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I only know that if they were standing in front of me, i could choose a race based on visual observation. If they're Peruvian, chances are extremely high that they are (at least partially) Native American.
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#2210121 - 04/02/19 05:47 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
Truffle Royale Offline

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There is no Native American code, only American Indian or Alaska Native.
The best I could find on the FDIC website indicated that the race should be Not applicable.
But I'm not willing to bet $$ on that one either.
If it were me, I'd ask whether they are 100% Peruvian = NA and if not 100%, likely go with White. It's the only choice of the current options that comes close.

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#2210122 - 04/02/19 05:49 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure raitchjay
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Originally Posted By raitchjay
If they're Peruvian, chances are extremely high that they are (at least partially) Native American.


Really? I learned something new today!
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#2210123 - 04/02/19 05:54 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure Truffle Royale
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Originally Posted By Truffle Royale
There is no Native American code, only American Indian or Alaska Native.
The best I could find on the FDIC website indicated that the race should be Not applicable.
But I'm not willing to bet $$ on that one either.
If it were me, I'd ask whether they are 100% Peruvian = NA and if not 100%, likely go with White. It's the only choice of the current options that comes close.


What??? Pretty much anyone from Peru has Native American (American Indian if you like...potato, puhtato) blood.
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#2210124 - 04/02/19 05:56 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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100% Peruvian is sort of a meaningless term from a racial standpoint...it's the equivalent of asking if you're 100% Kentuckian. Most Peruvians are mainly of Native American ancestry.....the rest are mostly a fairly even split of Native American/Spanish (mestizo).
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#2210125 - 04/02/19 05:59 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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Every Latin American country varies in the amount of race mixtures in the country.....countries like Brazil and Cuba have a high percentage of race-mixing between white, black, and Native American Indian. Countries like Peru and Bolivia have very high percentages of people of strictly Native American Indian blood.
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#2210127 - 04/02/19 06:07 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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Okay that's so interesting to me, especially with how geographically far apart America and Peru are! Any idea why Native American Indians traveled down to Peru specifically, instead of Mexico or a nearer country?
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#2210128 - 04/02/19 06:13 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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"Native American" doesn't refer (at least in geography...i can't speak for what the CFPB thinks about ethnicity and race) to the country of "America". It refers to people native to the lands of America (North, South and Central America) at the time of the Spanish and Portugese discovery and colonization of North, South, and Central America.

Tribes like the Incas, Aztecs, Mayans and other tribes of Latin America are just as much "Native Americans" as Choctaws, Apaches, and Seminoles are.
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#2210129 - 04/02/19 06:14 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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Peru is far from North America. It sits right there in South America.

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#2210130 - 04/02/19 06:16 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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The United States of America doesn't have a monopoly on "Indians" or "Native Americans". Indians/Native Americans are found from the northern tip of Canada and beyond to the southern tip of South America.
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#2210131 - 04/02/19 06:17 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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Good call - thanks for the education!
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#2210132 - 04/02/19 06:23 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
raitchjay Offline
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yw......geography is a passion of mine...
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#2210134 - 04/02/19 06:24 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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Google these names (i'm using them because they're sports figures i'm familiar with):

Jorge Chavez (jockey)
Teofilo Stevenson (boxer)
Ramon Dominguez (jockey)
Julio Cesar Chavez (boxer)

Each of them is originally from a Latin American country (Chavez from Peru, Stevenson from Cuba, Dominguez from Venezuela, Chavez from Mexico). I think they demonstrate the racial differences i spoke of above:

Chavez is pretty much 100% Native American (i don't know the name of the tribe)
Stevenson is black.
Dominguez is at least predominantly white.
Chavez is a classic mestizo (mixture of white and Native American)
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#2210142 - 04/02/19 07:35 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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Sorta blows a hole in the theory of using surname,, too, doesn't it laugh!
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#2210143 - 04/02/19 07:41 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
ADN Offline
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Thanks for the input! I may need start some history and geography lessons.

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#2210180 - 04/02/19 10:03 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
David Dickinson Offline
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Check out these definitions from the census bureau:
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

American Indian or Alaska Native – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.
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#2210181 - 04/02/19 10:07 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
David Dickinson Offline
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Quote:
Sorta blows a hole in the theory of using surname. . .

I've never been a fan of using surname.
My daughter (maiden name Dickinson) married a man from west Africa. Her last name is now Catraye. She's Swedish.

My daughter-in-law's last name is Dickinson (again, Swedish), but she's 100% Hispanic/White.
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#2210192 - 04/03/19 01:30 AM Re: Race - they aren't sure David Dickinson
Truffle Royale Offline

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David, can you please explain this part of the definition you cited:
Quote:
and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

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#2210196 - 04/03/19 11:05 AM Re: Race - they aren't sure Truffle Royale
rlcarey Online
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There is no Native American code, only American Indian or Alaska Native.


As David pointed out, American Indian has nothing to do with the United States. America consists of North, Central and South America. While some people in the USA pride themselves in being an "American", they are no more of an American than someone from Panama. I get a kick out of people in Europe when a local will ask where someone is from and they puff out their chest and declare "America". That is like saying, I am from Asia. No wonder some European's think we are idiots.

As far as maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment, that pretty much is left to the state of mind of the person filling out the form.
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#2210202 - 04/03/19 12:46 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure rlcarey
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Originally Posted By rlcarey
As far as maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment, that pretty much is left to the state of mind of the person filling out the form.


Isn't that basically the deal with the whole form anyway? A white male could put black female and you just take it because that's what they put?
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#2210214 - 04/03/19 01:41 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
raitchjay Offline
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I believe the "tribal affiliation or community attachment" language is basically mumbo-jumbo that lines up with the official line that the U.S. govt. has when it deals with its "special relationship" to Native Americans throughout history. You see that same language in Supreme Court cases that deal with equal protection under the law.....this could really open a can of worms and go on and on and on (just check out those Supreme Court cases, like Cabazon).....but basically the U.S. govt. rationalizes special treatment of Native Americans in these situations by focusing on the political entity and not a racial basis (the racial basis would be very much prohibited by the equal protection clause)......

At the end of the day......your racial background isn't changed by your continued agreement to affiliate with it.
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#2210215 - 04/03/19 01:45 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
raitchjay Offline
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I'm sort of scratching my head Randy.....i think i pointed that out way up there ^^^^^^^. smile
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#2210221 - 04/03/19 02:18 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure raitchjay
Truffle Royale Offline

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I'm feeling under attack so just to clarify, I said
Quote:
There is no Native American code, only American Indian or Alaska Native.

This statement is factually correct. There is no Native American code in 2018 HMDA. It was changed to American Indian or Alaka Native.

Quote:
What??? Pretty much anyone from Peru has Native American (American Indian if you like...potato, puhtato) blood.
and
Quote:
I only know that if they were standing in front of me, i could choose a race based on visual observation. If they're Peruvian, chances are extremely high that they are (at least partially) Native American.
What does a Peruvian look like?

While I'll concede that marking Native American for race may be better than white, how would you know that based on visual or surname? My 100% Peruvian ex SIL did not look Native American nor does he have a last name that would cause me to think he was. Per the original post, the applicant didn't know what to mark for race. Based on comments here, the OP is being told that they should mark race based on the Ethnicity the applicant marked, not visual or surname.

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#2210223 - 04/03/19 02:21 PM Re: Race - they aren't sure ADN
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Probably because the customer acknowledged the Peruvian part. I would use that info to complete the rest of the info because it's more reliable than anything I could look at or surnames which are mostly useless.
Last edited by RR Joker; 04/03/19 02:22 PM.
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