I literally LOLed...

The most poisonous, UN-happy firm I ever worked for was the one that had mandatory happy hours and expected you to put in face time at the bar with the partners.

I wouldn't want any of my coworkers to see me inebriated, nor do I care to see them the same. This reminds me of the outing we once went on when we were all encouraged to wear our swimsuits. Umm, no. It was clear to me that some of the younger managers were OK with this, but guess who didn't bring a swimsuit? Our manager! Talk about a trap.

Question for someone who's up to date on ADA: is there a Title 1 (employment) problem if an employer requires employees who may be alcoholics to attend functions (during or after hours) where alcohol consumption is a planned part of the function? Even though the bank doesn't encourage consumption, should it place employees in a setting where alcohol is readily available and in use by fellow employees?

We have an annual "Holiday" party in January at a pretty fancy steakhouse. Employees and a guest are invited.

We're given "drink tickets" the day of the event, and they're printed "good for one alcoholic beverage". I always thought it tacky that they wouldn't print "alcoholic or non-alcoholic".

Probably never thought about it as the typical reason behind those tickets is to prevent liability issues....it shows the bank did not contribute to someone becoming drunk and wrecking and possibly killing themselves or others on the say home.

I'm not a lawyer but my experience working for them would have me betting that wouldn't hold up in court, Joker. I'm a teatotaler and people are always offering to make sure my '...ticket doesn't go to waste. ' I'd like to know the answer to Richard's question.

Not sure if it helps but as a boss I'd love to see my employee there doing the team bonding thing but I also get that some folks don't want to for whatever reason so I'd never check to see who is there or not. I also try to keep that stuff to a minimum and if at all possible during working hours. And this may make some folks heads explode but I usually pay out of pocket for the core part of the event- like the bowling, rentals, etc. because if I am going to do this with my people I want to come from me as a token of appreciation for to them and team bonding.

I also find that teams tend to really bond over crunch time stuff much better than party stuff. A difficult task done well is often something the team will bond over and talk about for a while.

Anyhow, my humble suggestion would be to say to the boss in private- look I work a lot and want to be with kids and family or whatever. I'd leave out all of the sauce and other irrelevant talking points and keep it simple- I am sure the boss will get it.

A simple "I will not be able to attend as I have other commitments in the evenings and weekends" is all that is needed. You don't need to explain yourself.

Personally, I think team building on non-work hours is a horrible imposition on people. As a manager, I would never even consider it as I know my staff is already struggling to have quality time with their spouses and other family members. Why would any manager want to create unnecessary stress for an employee? Seems a little selfish to me.

As the others suggested, I would discuss this with your HR department. The manager may not be current on labor laws. Which lead me to my next point...….why are they a manager?

I agree with whoever said that team building occurs when everyone pulls together to achieve a departmental goal. Bowling and drinks? Hogwash. Besides, I don't bowl. No reason why. Just never have and not interested.

TryingtoComply said, why are they a manager?
Because they exhibit personnel skills that go beyond just task skills. They care for their Team and want to know them on a personal level. If you don't like that, don't work for them, but don't criticize managers with different styles.

TryingtoComply also said, "seems a little selfish to me." That's a funny statement to me. I think it's selfish not wanting to meet outside of work and get to know your coworkers on a personal level. It's also possible that might include families of those you spend 40+ hours a week working with.

This whole string has made it clear that some people don't want to give anything (or be asked to give anything) beyond their implied working hours. If that fits your companies policies and culture, that's great. However, there are many people that are looking for more than just a paycheck.

If you're going to work to get the money, so you can buy the clothes,
so you can go to work to get the money, so you can buy the car,
so you can go to work to get the money, so you can buy the food,
so you can go to work . . . . (I think you see what I'm saying).

There's so much more fulfillment when you enjoy the work you do and those you work with.

Again, you don't have to agree with me - this isn't an exact science and people have different preferences. But I believe it's incorrect to imply this is illegal (the reference to labor laws and HR manager).

Dave, I made the initial comment about the legality of the practice based on the statement from the OP "This is UNPAID, but REQUIRED."

I am in Illinois and at the advice of counsel at my prior employer, after hours all staff meetings were changed from mandatory to voluntary for non-exempt (hourly wage) employees because we did not want to pay them.

I do not wish to imply that the bank cannot require after hour meetings for this purpose and I agree with your perspective that there is value in team building as I do similar things with my staff as you do with yours. As consultants we are spread out across the country to twice a year we all gather for staff training followed by a meal together.

My point is that in many states, (Illinois included) mandatory meetings after hours must be paid time, not unpaid time.

Interesting. The two posters directly above advocating spending personal time with fellow employees are both consultants. Maybe that's a different breed from in the trench banking.

I'll reiterate for myself. I do not want to be friends or FB friends or socialize with my coworkers. I spend one third of my awake hours with them as a team providing services to our clients. That's enough. In all my years of working, I've made one exception to that rule and years later we're still in touch.

And again, I feel you've stepped on my toes, David, saying this: "I think it's selfish not wanting to meet outside of work and get to know your coworkers on a personal level." I have family and friends and things I want to do that I chose to spend the other two thirds of my awake hours on. For you to tell me I'm selfish not to share that time with co-workers is beyond the pale.

"This whole string has made it clear that some people don't want to give anything (or be asked to give anything) beyond their implied working hours. If that fits your companies policies and culture, that's great. However, there are many people that are looking for more than just a paycheck. "

David, I beg to disagree with you! I have always put in far greater than a 40 hour week. During an OCC fair lending exam, I, and others were getting in at 7AM, leaving at 10PM. Saturdays was only 10 hours and the 4th week of the exam, we took Sunday off. Another job, half days, 7AM to 7PM. In each case, we (my wife and I) knew and socialized with the other members of the department, in our our house, at their their house. We are still in communications today, in most cases. We made plans how we wanted - not according to a bank. By the time I got home, it was sacred family time, to be together and for things other than work. Weekends revolved around family, friends and church.

You made it sound like the fact that I (and others) did not want to go on a joint social team building made us bad employees, your quote above, Maybe, it's because we saw the same people for so many hours each week, that we needed some time away from them to be with our other family and friends.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone and I assume you aren't trying to hurt me. The whole purpose of BOL is to exchange information. In my defense, I believe some of you have read my comments out of context. Just because I said something, doesn't mean I was talking about you or a specific situation some of you have tied it to.

BrianC brings up Illinois state laws. I would never suggest anyone break labor laws. These vary by state and we don't know if someone is on salary or hourly, so again, the rules can vary greatly.

Let's draw a line in the sand. I believe we all would say Culture is important, but there's no hard and fast rules or one way to approach it. Thus, is subjective. What I'd love to hear discussed is how each of you would improve your organization's culture. Here's some specific questions but please add other comments to address this issue:
1. Many of you have brought up it has to happen during working hours. Is there ever a time you would meet with people from your organization outside of work hours?

2. What kind of Team Building do you think is effective?
For instance, InterestedParty said "teams tend to really bond over crunch time stuff much better than party stuff" but that's not something you can control. What if you want to be assertive and create some "bonding." How do you recommend helping that happen?

3. I'm curious if anyone looked at the resources I linked to on my April 30th post? If so, what are your comments on Lencioni's 5 Dysfunctions of a Team, the Organizational Health model and Ramsey's 5 Enemies of Unity?

I have to agree with Truff and Rocky. Any implication that someone is not a good employee or does not care about their coworkers because they choose not to attend an off the clock social functions or that they don't want anything other than a paycheck is insulting. I am here to work and I work a lot more than the 40 hours I am paid for. I don't complain about it as that is the way it is.

There are times I do attend these events, other times I don't. As a manager of my group, I don't judge anyone that chooses to go or not go. I have a fantastic team that works hard and does care about each other. People have busy lives outside of here and I fully appreciate their choice whether or not to attend.

If the group works well together, great. If people don't get along at work in my opinion it would still be divisive at the social function and would probably feed into a bad situation.

1. i don't do lunch with vendors
2. i don't so dinner with vendors
3. it is rare i attend an after hours function for the bank, and that is only if there is no alcohol. if there will be alcohol, i will not be in attendance.

"Why?" is no one's business but mine and mine alone, although my boss knows why, and he is perfectly fine with my reasoning (of course, his is a similar thought process to mine). Suffice to say it is not my cup of tea, and has no bearing on my ability to be a team player, or see that others are.

Whatever works for you is yours and yours alone to determine.

I think there's a lot to be said for balance in life as well......i take pride in doing a good job for my company.....but i also take a lot of enjoyment out of not thinking (or stressing) about my job when i'm not at my job. And my social/private life includes only a very few people that i work with...and i like it that way.

David, I'll bite on your questions but first an additional comment on the law - it's not just state law you have to be concerned with, but also the FLSA. Under the FLSA, if a non-exempt employee works more than 40 hours in a week, you have to pay them overtime. In general, hours that you require a non-exempt employee to be somewhere will count as work hours. State laws may be more restrictive than that, but at the very least you have to account for that. And whether they are salaried or hourly is a different question than whether they are exempt or non-exempt.

To your questions:

1) Absolutely. We have any number of mandatory off-hours events for exempt employees. We have several non-mandatory off-hours events for all employees (primarily a holiday party and summer event like a picnic, but occasionally do various other events as well.) The non-mandatory events are designed to appeal to everyone and make it so that people want to come even though it's not mandatory. But we never have 100% attendance and I wouldn't expect it. Even if everyone wants to come, some people are bound to have conflicts.

2) I think the most effective team building is work environment related. It occurs when the tone from the top of the organization radiates trust and respect and a team-first approach. I respect you and trust you to do your job and I assume you will do the same with me and everyone else in the organization. Everyone has a clear understanding of what expectations and whether they are meeting them or not. Also, employees are empowered with tools necessary to do their jobs. There is effective communication to everyone (to the extent appropriate) about matters that are affecting the company positively or negatively. If all of that sounds more like workplace environment than team-building, I understand. In my mind the two are closely linked.

Additional elements of effective team building: Teamwork is encouraged and rewarded and anti-teamwork is not rewarded. There is public recognition for someone who goes above and beyond to help the team. Credit for accomplishments is shared and blame for failures is not foisted on a scapegoat. Everyone should feel like they have an opportunity to be heard, whether with suggestions for improvements, complaints about problems, or anything else.

I agree that non-work activities that bring employees together for no purpose other than to enjoy each other's company are valuable. You can do a lot of those during the workday without overly impacting productivity (having a barista make coffee drinks for a coffee break in the morning, pot luck or catered lunches, etc.). But those activities will not overcome the problems in the work environment if the factors I listed above are ignored.

3. I've read many many management resources, but of those you listed, I only looked at the Dave Ramsey piece. I thought there were good principles in it, but also that it was a bit rigid and simplistic. (But I get that he was not writing a definitive article or treatise.)

Thanks for your comments rainman. Ramsey I rigid and simplistic. I've heard him live 4 times. He'll make no apology about being rigid. I think simplistic is wonderful. Working on culture doesn't have to be complicated. I also encourage you (and others) to check out Lencioni's info. I would say he is the world's leading authority on Organizational Health and he, too, makes things simple to follow. Again, I'll encourage all to check out https://www.tablegroup.com

My last post was 7 days ago. I asked those of you that resisted the ideas I have posted about how to build culture to post how you would work on your institution's culture. rainman is the only one that replied. I'm sincerely interested in learning how you think culture should be established and maintained. I teach this topic all around the country. It's a very subjective topic, I have much to learn and I also know there's many ways to approach it. What's interesting to me is that many of you criticized my comments but when I asked for your suggestions and solutions, I only got 1 reply (rainman's - who I really don't feel like was criticizing or resisting my previous comments).

I received an email earlier this week that referenced this string. The author said "I used to really enjoy BOL. It was a free exchange of information that everyone benefited from. I won't post there anymore as I see the bullying and rude behavior of a few if you dare disagree with them. The Team Building conversation is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. A few people have been down right mean to you. I don't care to be a part of this toxic behavior. Like Facebook, people feel like they can say anything they want and won't be held accountable. I doubt they would say any of these things if they had to look you in the eye. It's sad because BOL used to be great."

This saddened me as I've been with BOL since the beginning days, but I also agree with their comments. I encouraged this person to post this to BOL, but don't know if they will. I'm reminded that 70%+ of communication is non-verbal. We can read posts in ways the author never intended and we need to throw grace on words instead of trying to assume the author was being mean spirited. Hopefully, these comments can encourage all of us to be kind in what we say and also not jump to conclusions in wha the read.

I'm out on vacation next week and won't be viewing BOL while I'm gone. I'm hopeful that when I get back, there will be a healthy discussion full of suggestions and solutions.

David, first, I never believed that you were talking about my situation in particular. I did quote you, but because I cannot “quote”, I must copy and paste, and to differentiate other person's thoughts from my thoughts, usually use 2 of the 3, bold, underline or italics.

Your comment seemed more in line with legitimate Team Building exercises, but took on generalities of all team building exercises. That's what triggered the response. If it offended anyone, I apologize. I was never cut out to be a politician.

You did bring up a couple of important questions.

“1. Many of you have brought up it has to happen during working hours. Is there ever a time you would meet with people from your organization outside of work hours?”

Definitely had and will meet after work. Besides being co-workers, they are more importantly friends that need to work together for a common goal. In larger companies, we may see each other infrequently, but stay in contact via phone and e-mails. Smaller companies (same location) we've gotten together outside of work for many functions, family birthdays, pot luck dinner, etc. Friends, and co-workers both. In most cases, I had never met the people before joining the bank.

2. "What kind of Team Building do you think is effective?
For instance, InterestedParty said "teams tend to really bond over crunch time stuff much better than party stuff" but that's not something you can control. What if you want to be assertive and create some "bonding." How do you recommend helping that happen?"

There usually are many types of Team Building, and for different purposes. Management calls theirs a “retreat”, and usually off-premise for at least a few days. Strategic planning is usually one of the topics involved, as well as substantial socializing, since they are together 24/7. The team building is to create a consensus of the goals and visions of the institution. Some may have time at the end for partners to join. Usually, if there is a meeting for employees from all over the country, it is held at a place where everyone travels so as to afford the camaraderie that wouldn't exist if everyone went their separate ways at 5PM. This probably fits yourselves.

Middle management (or departmental Team Building) had been educational, and with management taking an active role in attending and presentations. At “Large Florida Bank” with a 25 member compliance department, they had engaged Kirchman Corp to put on their 3 day seminar as part of our Compliance Team Week” As pertinent topics were discussed, management from affected departments were invited, with an open invitation to Management and Legal. The remaining 2 days were Exec Management with their vision, HR , and the various department heads making presentations. Lunches and breaks were catered – a 40 hour casual week just us together. Before the meeting, all Team members were given 3 business casual shirts with the bank name and “Compliance Team”, which were worn every day, and for casual days in the future. Logo items given out included the Vision Statement - “Many Minds – One Vision!” There were Team building exercises to provide trust for each other. (I never want to stand blindfolded on a platform and fall backwards again to prove I could trust me teammates though!)

For Clerical, it involves team building games and trusting the other members. Responsibilities and how one person's actions affect the whole team.

[b]"3. I'm curious if anyone looked at the resources I linked to on my April 30th post? If so, what are your comments on Lencioni's 5 Dysfunctions of a Team, the Organizational Health model and Ramsey's 5 Enemies of Unity"?[/b]

I agree with all 3 articles.

What the original poster was asking about was the ill-conceived (my words) notion that an after-work bowling party or pub crawl would be considered team building. Based on the level of the employee, there was IMHO, no team building that could occur. After hours drinking and socializing would be more of an executive management retreat team building – not an on the clock employee, where it could easily turn into a liability.

David, as there appears to be a lot of interest in the topic, might you consider it for a webinar?

1) Absolutely. I like my co-workers, and I've been able to swing by a few things that are scheduled outside of work, but if I was required to commit outside of work hours, I would not be happy. I have a 16 month old. She goes down about an hour and a half after I get home generally. I have missed putting her down to sleep 2 times in her life. If I was told I had to miss a 3rd for "team building," I would start looking for a new job. I used to generally attend these types of events, and do enjoy them being available.

2) I think team building activities are fine, but work culture is not created through activities. It's everyday, and every interaction that builds it. I don't think you can fix a crappy work environment with activties. That said, free food always helps. It's basically a tax free bonus .

3) They seem like good ideas in general at a brief glance. I didn't find specifically where any of them suggested mandatory team building outside of work hours and how they justify it. I think that is the biggest difference between what you're saying and those disagreeing. There is a line in the sand there.

Slight tangent, but I think very relevant. Speaking as a(n increasingly less) young professional, I think some of this is much larger than just management, such as companies showing over and over that their workers don't really matter to them, no matter what they say at picnics. Remember when a pension was a thing, now a 50% match is "generous." Health care costs went up 10%, the portion of the premium I'm paying went up 17% (HR is happy to announce no reductions in benefits). Who needs a sick day, when you can have 5 extra days of PTO. You want a good work environment, take care of your workers. "Industry standard" is not currently sufficient to make a worker feel valued.

I work for an institution I really like. I have very good managers. I'm not going to give up the things I think are important to me (including my time) to an organization that will consolidate/merge/outsource my livelihood if it will improve their bottom line... and they will do that. There is a cost-benefit analysis going on to determine how much my time is worth. Treat me like a comodity, then you'll need to pay me for my time. Managers can only do so much to counteract that.

David, perhaps you can point out who was rude and unprofessional in this thread? I haven't seen any of that. I have just seen a lot of people who disagreed with you.

fwiw, I have met David both professionally and socially on various occasions and he knows that what I posted here is exactly what I would say to his face.
David is passionate and adament about his views as everyone reading this can see.
I find it strange that a healthy discourse of the type going on in this thread would set people to send pms and emails and be afraid to post here or even leave BOL.
Extremely busy with EOM and Audit but if I find some downtime, David, I'll read and respond to your links. But my motto is 'work to live not live to work' so it will have to wait for time at work. Enjoy your vacation. Mine is coming and I plan to enjoy it too.

Just found this thread and it's been an interesting thread to read in one sitting. I'm old school and will admit it. My kids might have a different opinion than mine, although only one seems to get pulled back to a team building event after work. They turn the bank into a casino after hours, play with monopoly money, and apparently have a great time - it happens once a year, it's not mandatory, and he goes because it's fun. To be honest, the first year it came up, he wasn't happy about it and we talked. I told him to go show up, be seen, and if it wasn't fun? Then slip out. I told him it wasn't worth providing the wrong impression to senior management just to save an hour. He went, stayed for the whole thing, loved it, and goes every year. When I was a very young officer, I was still fully inculcated with having been an Air Force Officer and the idea of not showing up wasn't even an option I could comprehend, so I always showed up, I always had a drink in my hand (generally club soda with a lime) which I drank 1/3rd of so that it was clear I didn't need a refill of any sort unless I got my own. I mingled, made sure I said hi or chatted with senior management, and the introvert in me hated it - but I liked getting free face time with the execs. My kids had no problem hanging out with dad for the evening or grandma if dad got to come with me. Do I think my attitude played a role in where I am now? All I know is that it didn't hurt.

Fast forward to now - I'm in a senior management position and have been for 17 years. I've never pushed any type of team building that wasn't done on the bank's budget, during working hours, and I make sure I'm talking to the people on the team. Our annual officers' meeting is done on a weekday from 8:30 - noon and we had a blast this year. We were split up into teams that didn't include the people we see the most often. It was fun. Our Christmas party is held on Mahogany Row for 90 minutes with food in the Board room, a range of drinks, and while it's not mandatory, most people will go upstairs and hang out for awhile. The only things I can think of that are after work are on someone's last day and happy hour starts at 4:00 down the street (and extremely voluntary and usually less than 20 show up).

I will never turn down social time with the boss when the boss knows how to relax and show the other side of his/her personality. If you really want to be a team player that understands your team? Get to know them. Eat lunch with them. Find out what motivates them (you don't have to ask them if you get to know them).

One last comment: at one point, I had a group of about 15 people reporting to me and it was obvious that someone had a really bad attitude that was causing issues, but the supervisor in the area couldn't pinpoint it. I asked the supervisor to tell them that I wanted them to take a piece of paper and draw a happy face on it and leave it on my desk by the end of the day. No prizes for the best happy face and no comments on peoples drawing skills. Two rules - draw a happy face and leave it on my desk. It didn't take long before people were dropping them off. Team members came by off and on during the day to check them out. I had one person who said "That's stupid, I have better things to do, and I'm not going to waste my time on a happy face." She could have drawn one in less time than it took to complain about my stupid idea. Result: all but one of the team had a great time and we figured out who was our problem child (which led to gradually figuring out what the problem was - I never challenged her on the refusal to play).

David - I hope you're enjoying your vacation! When I'm not at work, I'm not at work.

Various quotes that stuck out at me – noone in particular aimed at really.’ Just the topic grabbed me.

“I've received over 20 emails and private messages (so far) from people saying they agree with the comments I made earlier, but they don't want to post publicly because they see the "beating" (as two people have called it) that I'm taking. You can disagree with me, but when you stop others from posting comments, you're creating a negative atmosphere that does not promote healthy discussion.

I could go on and on (this is a passionate area of mine), but I'm convinced that many of you are very set in your opinions and not interested in hearing anything to the contrary”.

What is the point of a ‘discussion’ if there were not opposing viewpoints? If there is one thing that compliance folks are good at it’s agreeing to disagree

There is not just one right answer…sorry. I also find it disturbing that that many people would actually be afraid to post in a forum that can be posted in anonymously.

“I am sure we all have horror stories of managers, coworkers or subordinates that were gossipers, lazy, disrespectful, etc.”

No amount of ‘team building’ is going to change those types of employees. Sadly, I’ve seen some major damage done by this type. Yet, they would be the first to attend a function…just sayin.”

“OP here, thank you ALL for such amazing and thoughtful feedback. Clearly we are a passionate bunch here!’

Which is precisely why we don’t always agree !

“This whole string has made it clear that some people don't want to give anything (or be asked to give anything) beyond their implied working hours. If that fits your companies policies and culture, that's great. However, there are many people that are looking for more than just a paycheck”

Fine….and?

“There's so much more fulfillment when you enjoy the work you do and those you work with”.

I, personally, have worked places where I could agree with this 110%...and have personally worked hard to provide entertainment, etc., for after hours get togethers which were highly attended.

I have also worked where I would rather NOT associate with the co-workersI’m associated with and no amount of getting together would make me enjoy them or their families.

“What I'd love to hear discussed is how each of you would improve your organization's culture”

In some of the worst cases….clean house and start fresh…and I’m not kidding.

Now for the questions:

1. Many of you have brought up it has to happen during working hours. Is there ever a time you would meet with people from your organization outside of work hours?

Possibly, but for the last few years I’ve not even attended a Christmas dinner due to the distance and my other responsibilities and a couple of personal reasons I won't go into here.

2. What kind of Team Building do you think is effective?
For instance, InterestedParty said "teams tend to really bond over crunch time stuff much better than party stuff" but that's not something you can control. What if you want to be assertive and create some "bonding." How do you recommend helping that happen?

Not sure, as I don’t think there is really any such thing here. The branches exist in their own little glass bubbles and the Main Office is the biggest bubble of all…A few of us are a ship on a desert Island and walk alone in an effort to train, etc.

3. I'm curious if anyone looked at the resources I linked to on my April 30th post? If so, what are your comments on Lencioni's 5 Dysfunctions of a Team, the Organizational Health model and Ramsey's 5 Enemies of Unity?

No, sorry, just not of interest to me. Hopefully honesty counts 😊