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#2222885 - 10/02/19 06:45 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
BrianC Offline
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The post itself states
Quote
This change will potentially require update to software used to create batch files to comply with this instruction change and in view of this FinCEN proposes a target date for updating batch filing of October 1, 2019, with a mandatory effective date of February 1st, 2020.
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#2222939 - 10/03/19 03:43 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 BrianC
RockChucker, CAMS Offline
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Originally Posted by BrianC
The post itself states
Quote
This change will potentially require update to software used to create batch files to comply with this instruction change and in view of this FinCEN proposes a target date for updating batch filing of October 1, 2019, with a mandatory effective date of February 1st, 2020.


Yes, yes it does. Not sure how I missed that. smile
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#2222950 - 10/03/19 04:09 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
StevenD Offline
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From the notice, " This change will potentially require update to software used to create batch files to comply with this instruction change and in view of this FinCEN proposes a target date for updating batch filing of October 1, 2019, with a mandatory effective date of February 1st, 2020."
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#2223015 - 10/04/19 12:23 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
Adam Witmer Offline
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Looks like the answer to CTR FAQ 16 is now updated, though slightly different from the original version that was available a few weeks ago:

"If more than one Item 2 option applies to a Part I person, a separate Part I section will be prepared on that person for each Item 2 option. For example, if the Part I person conducted a $5,000 deposit into their personal account and a separate $7,000 deposit into the account of another person/entity, there will be one Part I on that person reporting option 2a on the personal deposit with that amount and account number in Item 21 “Cash in amount”. There will be a second Part I on that person reporting option 2b on the person/entity account transaction with that amount and account number in Item 21."
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#2223026 - 10/04/19 01:20 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
ramblings Offline
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My question for this is if I deposit $11,000 into a joint account, do I need 2 part 1s for me? One as me conducting on my behalf and then one as me conducting on behalf of someone else? Sometimes I think FinCEN doesn't think through their own decisions.

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#2223029 - 10/04/19 01:51 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
Adam Witmer Offline
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I would hope not as I don't believe that having only one part one on you would cause the following problems they were trying to fix: "These instructions led to CTRs being rejected due to not having a 2c owner record, and CTRs being filed that do not allow users of the BSA data to fully understand the transactions that are being reported."

That said, you can always run this by FinCEN. wink
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#2223233 - 10/07/19 09:07 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
John Burnett Offline
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You'll make what happened clear when you provide the 2a and the 2c Part I records, both with the same account number and dollar amount, and the same dollar amount in the Part II record.
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#2223346 - 10/08/19 07:09 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
Limestone_BSA Offline
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As I'm digesting the new instructions, I found that there is another revision that to me seems to be a complete change in reporting and may be significantly difficult to capture (underlining added by me for emphasis):

Item 3 Multiple transactions: Check box 3 if multiple cash in or cash out transactions of any amount were conducted in a single business day by or for the person recorded in Part I. Multiple transactions includes all transactions made whether reportable or not. If a customer makes a $12,000 deposit and a $300 withdrawal, box 3 will be checked even though only $12,000 is reportable. This applies when multiple Part I sections with different Item 2 person types are filed on the same person. Box 3 will be checked in all Part I sections on that person. “Multiple transactions” is not the same as the Item 24 option “Aggregated transactions,” which only involves aggregated transactions all of which are below the reporting requirements.

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#2223367 - 10/08/19 08:16 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 Limestone_BSA
ramblings Offline
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May I ask where you found the underlined part? It's not on the FAQ Item 18 or the instructions on the CTR.

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#2223382 - 10/08/19 10:56 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
BrianC Offline
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It is in the message that FinCEN put on the e-filing site. One of the earlier posts in this thread copied the entire message.
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#2223399 - 10/09/19 01:28 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
ramblings Offline
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I must really be missing it. I don't see it in the 10/1/19 notice from the e-filing site.

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#2223406 - 10/09/19 01:59 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
ramblings Offline
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Never mind. It's in the User Guide, not the notice.

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#2223443 - 10/09/19 05:46 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 ramblings
Limestone_BSA Offline
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Yes, this is in the actual instructions, not in the notice or in the FAQ

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#2226715 - 12/04/19 05:13 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
chuckchuck Offline
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Has anyone had any communication from your software vendor on these changes and if they are accommodating this?

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#2226717 - 12/04/19 05:24 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
Sunshine Lady Offline
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Verafin has let us know that they are working on the change and it will be done by the expected date.
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#2226757 - 12/04/19 08:52 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
ColoradoAML Offline
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I would think that the vast majority of AML platforms would need to be updated. If you haven't heard anything from yours you should probably reach out and ask them.

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#2227300 - 12/12/19 08:23 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
BuckDog Offline
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We use Patriot Officer and it has already been updated.

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#2227517 - 12/17/19 02:20 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
praBSA Offline
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Here's a follow up question. Now that we have multiple pages for multiple roles under item #2, would we still select multiple transactions for that role?

By that I mean, if an individual is 2a for depositing 5k into his personal and 2b for depositing 9k into his business and those are on separate pages, are we still selecting multiple transactions? How is your automated software doing it? We still have a manual process....

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#2227556 - 12/17/19 05:05 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
Adam Witmer Offline
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Well, the 10/1/19 user guide said this:

• Item 3 Multiple transactions
o Modified the text as follows (new text is underlined for emphasis):
Item 3 Multiple transactions: Check box 3 if multiple cash in or cash out transactions of any amount were conducted in a single business day by or for the person recorded in Part I. Multiple transactions includes all transactions made whether reportable or not. If a customer makes a $12,000 deposit and a $300 withdrawal, box 3 will be checked even though only $12,000 is reportable. This applies when multiple Part I sections with different Item 2 person types are filed on the same person. Box 3 will be checked in all Part I sections on that person. “Multiple transactions” is not the same as the Item 24 option “Aggregated transactions,” which only involves multiple aggregated transactions all of which are below the reporting requirements.


Then the 11/24/19 user guide said this:
Item 3 Multiple transactions
• 3.3 Element Requirements & Attachment C – Electronic Filing Instructions
o Modified the element definition (3.3 Element Requirements) and associated item instructions (Attachment C – Electronic Filing Instructions – Item Instructions) to clarify that the Multiple Transactions indicator should only be checked if multiple transactions of any amount totaling more than $10,000 as cash in or more than $10,000 as cash out (cash in or cash out transactions should not be combined) were conducted in a single business day by or on behalf of the same person.
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#2227561 - 12/17/19 05:40 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
Adam Witmer Offline
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praBSA: Okay, I had to reread the 10/1/19 and 11/22/19 changes a few times, as well as other parts of the user guide, to figure out what they seem to want, and I still don't think it is clear for your question. I had caught the 10/1/19 change, but hadn't seen the 11/22/19 change until today. It seems the 11/22/19 change corrected the 10/1/19 change that seemed bizarre in the first place.

This seems to be the 11/22/19 (most recent v1.4.1) instruction from the user guide:
3. Multiple transactions
Item 3 Multiple transactions: Check Item 3 if multiple cash transactions of any amount totaling more than $10,000 as cash in or more than $10,000 as cash out (cash in and cash out transactions should not be combined) were conducted in a single business day by or for the person recorded in Part I. For example, if a customer makes a $12,000 deposit and a $300 deposit on the same day, item 3 should be checked. However, if a customer makes a $12,000 deposit and a $300 withdrawal, item 3 should not be checked. Item 3 “Multiple transactions” is related to, but not the same as, the Item 24 “Aggregated transactions.” Whereas Item 3 should be checked each time multiple transactions are reported as a single transaction, the Item 24 option “Aggregated transaction” should only be checked when all the specific conditions underlying that option have been satisfied.


Now to answer your original question of
Quote
"would we still select multiple transactions for that role? By that I mean, if an individual is 2a for depositing 5k into his personal and 2b for depositing 9k into his business and those are on separate pages, are we still selecting multiple transactions?"


Based on the 11/22/19 changes, my first thought is that you would select the multiple transaction box for your example, since the amount by that person was more than $10,000 in. However, the 11/22/19 user guide says this: "Whereas Item 3 should be checked each time multiple transactions are reported as a single transaction..." In your question, you don't have a single transaction for the multiple transaction since we now report them separately in 2a and 2b. I don't see any other guidance for this, so I'm not sure how FinCEN intended this. My guess would be to select multiple transactions, but that might be worth a call to FinCEN.
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#2227565 - 12/17/19 05:52 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
BrianC Offline
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The CTR update is one of many topics we will be covering at the Top Gun BSA Conference in sunny Scottsdale next March. I'm working with FinCEN to have a representative there as well so that we can try to get additional clarification on these types of issues.
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#2228885 - 01/13/20 06:43 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
mkp122 Offline
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Has anyone heard of this being delayed? Per our vendor they expect a delay until later in 2020

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#2228886 - 01/13/20 07:05 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
BrianC Offline
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There is nothing formal published on FinCEN's e-filing site. Does you vendor have a source for their claim?
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#2228891 - 01/13/20 08:04 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
mkp122 Offline
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No, they aren't ready for the change so that is the response we are receiving. I haven't seen anything but was hoping I just missed it.

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#2229322 - 01/17/20 07:21 PM Re: FinCEN Updated CTR FAQ #16 jsim913
jsim913 Offline
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Verafin indicated in their blog today that FinCEN is pushing the deadline to September 1, 2020. Be on the lookout for updated guidance.

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