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#2252681 - 04/20/21 05:28 PM CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance
CI@MBOC Offline
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Joined: Apr 2021
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Hey all!!!
This is cool, long-time lurker, first time poster smile

Got a CTR question for ya'll. I'm leaning towards a decision, but want to run by you all.
John and Jane Doe come up to the teller window together. They maintain a joint account at the bank.
They each have their own debit card loaded up with state unemployment benefits. John does a cash advance for 6484, Jane does a cash advance for 7194. None of the funds are deposited to their joint account, they do not withdraw any additional cash from their joint account.

CTR for $13678?

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#2252682 - 04/20/21 05:37 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
MyOhMyWeComply Offline
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Texas
Our policies and procedures stipulate that all cash advances have to be run through the account (cash deposit / Cash withdrawal) so we have record of when they are done, and it allows Accounting know where to draw the funds if the transaction is disputed later as fraud...So for us we would file.

When we have non customers conduct cash advances we have a "dummy" account that they do the transaction on, and we limit the amount to 1,000 to avoid possible CTR transactions and loss...

If you do not have this type of system in place then as I see it you have 2 different transactions for amounts less than CTR reporting and you would not file... Plus they just happen to come in at the same time... If they would have come in at different times and withdrawn the funds from the account separately you still would not be required to file if your system is advanced enough to know the conductor of the transactions as not a single person left with over 10k.

I'm interested to see how others would handle this?

Always Learning smile

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#2252683 - 04/20/21 05:42 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
Jennifer Offline
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Jennifer
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From what I read, each acted on their own behalf. No knowledge that it was a joint effort? I think no CTR.

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#2252689 - 04/20/21 06:05 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
John Burnett Offline
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Cape Cod
In this scenario, the fact that they have a joint account with you is a red herring. It's not only irrelevant to the answer but confuses the issue at hand. No account at your bank was involved.
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#2252704 - 04/20/21 09:03 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
CI@MBOC Offline
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Joined: Apr 2021
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All great feedback, thank you everyone! I've been in AML investigations for 14yrs and just recently transitioned to a new role that has me overseeing CTR filings as well. This one was submitted to me as a CTR but I wasn't convinced we needed to file. That was my initial thought too, that their being together at the teller window didn't have any relevance to the CTR threshold since each person did their own cash advance off their own card and nothing actually moved to/from a bank account.
CTRs are way more difficult than investigations and SAR filings I'm learning smile

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#2252722 - 04/21/21 02:32 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
CI@MBOC Offline
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Joined: Apr 2021
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If I can ask one more question along a similar line though.
I've been seeing a lot of CTRs my group has been filing where is there's a joint account (husband and wife, or whatever), and one person comes in to do a $12k withdrawal, and maybe they make some sort of statement to the teller like "I'm going to buy a car" or "time to buy some furniture" or "going on vacation", our analysts are assuming that the withdrawal is then for the benefit of the joint owner and putting them in as "conducted on their behalf".
That seems counterintuitive to me. Report the withdrawal, report who conducted it. Done deal....no?

I'm questioning that but getting some considerable pushback.

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#2252725 - 04/21/21 02:50 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
rlcarey Offline
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rlcarey
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Galveston, TX
FAQ 23 and 24 should give you what you need on deposits and withdrawals: https://www.fincen.gov/frequently-asked-questions-regarding-fincen-currency-transaction-report-ctr
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#2252729 - 04/21/21 03:40 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
CI@MBOC Offline
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Thanks @rlcarey. Is "I'm going to buy a car" or "time to buy some furniture" or "going on vacation" knowledge of joint behalf something? That seems awfully subjective, almost like an auditor/regulator debating what's suspicious and what isn't.
I guess I just don't really care what people use their own money for, not sure why we would even be asking/collecting/recording/documenting that.

What if the customer says "This $15000 is a gift to our grandson for college graduation." Now we need all the grandson's info? Seems like "the knowledge" presents more issues than it solves.

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#2252740 - 04/21/21 05:11 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
John Burnett Offline
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Cape Cod
"This $12,000 cashier's check [that I'm buying with cash] is to pay our restaurant's supplier." -- I'd argue the CTR would name the individual making the purchase and the entity that owns the restaurant business, but not the supplier. Payment of the supplier is a separate transaction that occurs later.

I could be convinced to treat the $15,000 gift to the grandson the same way. But I would not judge you if you included the graduate with item 2c checked. You would probably have to check several "unknown" items in his Part I. I'd bet the proud parents might have his SSN but doubt they would have his ID documents info.
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#2252942 - 04/26/21 02:57 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
CI@MBOC Offline
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I sent the CTR back to our analyst for deletion. I got a reply, "Also, about the CTR for the two that came and withdrew funds from their EDD cards. If both customers were at the window at the same time I would file a CTR on them. Due to them walking out with a total of $13,000+. It is not going to hurt to file a CTR on them you won’t get in trouble for filing. You would get in trouble if you didn’t file one and it’s needed. So covering you base is okay in this type of situation."

This is a bizarre train of thought in my mind. We'd file because it's not going to hurt if we file? Might as well file SARs on everything that alerts then, too.

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#2252948 - 04/26/21 03:57 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
ColoradoAML Offline
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Multiple account owners being together, or one stating that they're going to buy a car or travel, hardly constitute knowledge that the transactions are conducted on behalf of everyone. You're allowed to list all joint owners though, if that's what you choose, without any justification. The only real cost is the time wasted by completing filings that aren't necessary.

I don't know about your auditors/examiners, but I'd recommend making sure you're consistent.

Edit to add that I also would not file this CTR solely because a husband and wife are standing next to each other when they processed the transactions. If the teller had more specific information, or even watched them pool their money together, that would likely change my opinion.
Last edited by ColoradoAML; 04/26/21 03:59 PM.
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#2252953 - 04/26/21 04:22 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
CI@MBOC Offline
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Completely agree @ColoradoAML.
Thank you for confirming that I'm not crazy.
I've been seeing this a lot at this bank thus far, mostly with withdrawals. They include joint account owners on the CTR for cash withdrawals.....just as if it was a deposit CTR. I scratch my head most days already.

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#2253051 - 04/27/21 04:16 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
John Burnett Offline
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John Burnett
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Cape Cod
I recommend downloading a copy of FinCEN's CTR FAQs (Google FinCEN CTR FAQ -- it works every time, or CLICK HERE. Save the link because FinCEN's been known to update the FAQs without publicizing the fact.

Make up some training scenarios using the FAQs as a resource. Decide what you bank's default option will be for reportable cash withdrawals from joint accounts (see question 24) when it does not have knowledge (this is a stronger standard than "assumes") the withdrawal is made of the other joint owner's behalf. Then train, rinse, repeat.
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#2253160 - 04/28/21 08:28 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance CI@MBOC
CI@MBOC Offline
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Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 42
Bookmarked!

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#2253161 - 04/28/21 08:30 PM Re: CTR inquiry - husband & wife separate cash advance MyOhMyWeComply
CI@MBOC Offline
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@MyOhMyWeComply That makes sense to me if you gotta run it through the account!
Last edited by CI@MBOC; 04/28/21 08:30 PM.
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