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#1864489 - 10/24/13 01:26 PM Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR
Deena Offline
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Deena
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An employee of our customer came into a branch with several checks to be used for a change order. The teller didn't add the checks together (don't ask . . .) and didn't realize that a CTR would be required. The customer's employee came in again and we tried to get her SSN and DOB but she refused. We contacted the customer and they are unwilling to "strong arm" their employee into giving us the information and they will not release the information from their personnel records without the employee's permission. Besides repremanding the teller, what do we do at this point? Can we check the multiple transactions box? I know that's not the correct way to file the CTR, but I don't think the system will allow the CTR to be filed without all of the required fields unless one of the boxes is checked, will it?

What about filing a SAR? We're thinking we need to file one because the customer told us that the reason they won't cooperate is because it was a bank error and if the teller had requested the information at the time of the transaction, the transaction wouldn't have occurred.
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#1864497 - 10/24/13 01:37 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
edAudit Offline
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edAudit
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You are here
SAR and Close the account.
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#1864524 - 10/24/13 02:24 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR edAudit
Deena Offline
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Thanks, Ed - the customer is actually a commercial loan customer so, unfortunately, it's not so easy as to just close the account.
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#1864531 - 10/24/13 02:32 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
rlcarey Offline
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Galveston, TX
Sure it is. They are being complacent in the violation of Federal law. Tell them that and that unless they cooperate, their deposit accounts will be closed regardless of other relationships. See what they say to that. This is not a "bank error".
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#1864535 - 10/24/13 02:35 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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Next to Harvey
On "critical" fields the CTR will let you check the "unknown" box. FinCEN will accept it, but any competent reviewer will say, "How did this happen?" Write your memo to file explaining how it happened and how its not going to happen again. Write it now.

The SAR is unavoidable:

No person shall for the purpose of evading the transactions in currency reporting requirements of this chapter with respect to such transaction:
(a) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under the transactions in currency reporting requirements of this chapter;
(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under the transactions in currency reporting requirements of this chapter that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; [abridged]


While your customer has a logical argument, that has no effect on your responsibilities. The customer and its employee are your SAR subjects.

It's frustrating that you already talked about what you were doing to your employee...I could have worked up a really good harangue. wink
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#1864639 - 10/24/13 04:24 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Elwood P. Dowd
Deena Offline
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Ken, I said don't ask - meaning don't get me started, but I plan to show this thread to seveal people, so feel free to harangue away. wink

Thanks to all for your responses.
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#1865211 - 10/25/13 06:55 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Elwood P. Dowd
Deena Offline
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Ken (or anyone else who may know), I'm being told that the system will not allow the CTR to be filed with a conductor without a TIN and DOB. They're telling me that the unknown boxes only work for the driver's license information.
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#1865214 - 10/25/13 07:08 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
Dani York, CRCM Offline
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TN
The CTR itself on the BSA efiling site allows "unknown" to be checked for all critical fields. If your teller system does not, that's a vendor issue and you need to contact them about it.

In the meantime, you could file it directly as a discrete filing on the e-filing site.
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#1865215 - 10/25/13 07:07 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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I do not have access to the e-filing system, but the official replica, the User Test System, allows you to check either 2a or 2b and still click the "unknown" box for both the TIN and Date of Birth.

I did not complete an entire CTR, but when I clicked "Validate" it did not include the TIN and DOB fields (where I had checked "unknown") in the list of errors.

Could this be some piece of logic a vendor inserted; i.e. if it was the person across the counter you must have this information?
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#1865254 - 10/25/13 08:24 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Elwood P. Dowd
Deena Offline
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Thank you both for your responses. Maybe it is indeed a vendor issue. I'll check it out. And, Dani, thank you for the suggestion for a discrete filing through the e-filing system - that sounds like a viable option.
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#2274681 - 08/25/22 10:47 AM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
Compliance NABW Offline
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I see some discussions on this topic and some people say file a SAR and some don't. It would seem to me that the activity is not necessarily suspicious, but if the conductor refuses to provide the information, then you have knowledge of an actual crime. It would seem you would refer to the appropriate law enforcement agency for potential prosecution rather than file a SAR.

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#2274683 - 08/25/22 11:48 AM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
SmallBankBSA Offline
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Without knowing more about the transaction that took place...difficult to say if I'd file a SAR. Did they not want the CTR filed and took funds back and they structured? Or did the transaction occur and now you're filing the CTR but don't have the information? Did the teller refuse the transaction because the customer wouldn't provide the information?

The SAR form does have a box to check for "refused or avoided request for documentation."

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#2274687 - 08/25/22 12:38 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
rlcarey Offline
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And we are beating on a nine year old dead horse for a specific reason? Unless there is an additional related question or recent guidance issued, I am sure the original poster has moved on a long time ago.
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#2274715 - 08/25/22 05:04 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
BrianC Offline
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Quote
It would seem you would refer to the appropriate law enforcement agency for potential prosecution rather than file a SAR.

Notifying law enforcement for any type of suspicious activity does not eliminate your obligation to file a SAR.
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#2274718 - 08/25/22 05:08 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote
but if the conductor refuses to provide the information, then you have knowledge of an actual crime. It would seem you would refer to the appropriate law enforcement agency for potential prosecution

if the conductor provided no information, what would you refer to law enforcement for prosecution? that some guy came to make a cash deposit, was asked for identification and wouldn't provide and took his money and left?
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#2275771 - 09/20/22 01:49 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR BrianC
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Originally Posted by BrianC
Quote
It would seem you would refer to the appropriate law enforcement agency for potential prosecution rather than file a SAR.

Notifying law enforcement for any type of suspicious activity does not eliminate your obligation to file a SAR.

I agree, assuming there is a Suspicious Activity. Again, it sounds to me like the Bank knows the crime took place.

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#2275772 - 09/20/22 01:51 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR HappyGilmore
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Originally Posted by HappyGilmore
Quote
but if the conductor refuses to provide the information, then you have knowledge of an actual crime. It would seem you would refer to the appropriate law enforcement agency for potential prosecution

if the conductor provided no information, what would you refer to law enforcement for prosecution? that some guy came to make a cash deposit, was asked for identification and wouldn't provide and took his money and left?

That's not what was presented here though, but good point. What do you do if someone robs the bank and you don't know who it is? You file some sort of police report, I assume. Would you file a SAR?

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#2275773 - 09/20/22 01:53 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR rlcarey
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Originally Posted by rlcarey
And we are beating on a nine year old dead horse for a specific reason? Unless there is an additional related question or recent guidance issued, I am sure the original poster has moved on a long time ago.

I was looking at some similar scenarios and wanted to make that note for anyone else looking up this topic and to potentially spark additional discussion.

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#2275776 - 09/20/22 02:08 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR Deena
ColoradoAML Offline
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§ 1020.320 (c) Exceptions. A bank is not required to file a SAR for a robbery ...

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#2275897 - 09/21/22 09:20 PM Re: Customer Refuses to Provide Info for CTR ColoradoAML
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Originally Posted by ColoradoAML
§ 1020.320 (c) Exceptions. A bank is not required to file a SAR for a robbery ...

Thank you. It's good they specify that. I think it is the same concept with other known crimes. Just like you may not know who robbed the bank, but you still file a report, look at the video feed, etc.

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