We have a non-originated file that we are not sure how to report the application date for.

Since HMDA does not specify what is needed for a completed application, our bank made the decision to follow the TRID definition that requires name, SSN, income, property address, loan amount, and property value. For this particular file, we received all six pieces of information on 5/24. At that time though, the borrower didn't know whether she was going to purchase the property as her primary residence or if she was going to use it as an investment property. The loan officer had a conversation with the borrower on 6/6 where the borrower informed him that she was now planning to purchase the property as her primary residence, at which point an LE was issued and sent to the borrower.

We are not sure how to report application date in this scenario. Going based off of our HMDA definition of a completed application, I believe our application date would be 5/24 when we received our six pieces of information. On the other hand though, since we follow TRIDs definition of a completed application, is it wrong to report 5/24 since our application and prelims have an application date of 6/6?

From a TRID standpoint, was it correct to wait until we received confirmation that the transaction was subject to the TRID rule before providing an LE? Or in these situations do we err on the side of caution and send out prelims when we receive our six pieces, in this case, on 5/24?

I'm confused....let's start first with what was meant by "investment property"? A rent home? A flip home? A consumer investment home? I don't understand why no LE was issued prior.

I just saw your last sentence really....if the applicant is waffling between "i want to buy this property as a primary residence" and "i want to buy this property as a non-owner occupied rent home"....and they literally won't make up their mind at the time of applicaion, i would err on the side of caution and issue the LE when the 6 pieces are gathered.

With that scenario, the application is literally waffling between covered by TRID and not covered by TRID....i think i would just say make up your mind to the applicant...if they can't, i think i'd say "well, come apply when you've made up your mind".....

I don't think i'd even pull credit and treat as an application if i can't determine whether the applicant wants a consumer purpose or a business purpose loan.

Since HMDA does not specify what is needed for a completed application

HMDA reporting is not subject to the receipt of a completed application.

our bank made the decision to follow the TRID definition that requires name, SSN, income, property address, loan amount, and property value.

If you are missing any of this then you have an incomplete application and you have to report what action was taken on the incomplete application - denied for an incomplete application or closed for incompleteness if you sent NOI under 1002.9(c)

I don't think i'd even pull credit and treat as an application if i can't determine whether the applicant wants a consumer purpose or a business purpose loan.

I would agree with this for determining the applicability for TRID however HMDA is applicable regardless if consumer or business if the application request is for the purchase, refinance or improvement of a dwelling.

After re-reading the original post IMHO the HMDA application date for the specific loan request is 5/24 regardless if they had all the information needed for a complete application.

What occupancy would you report for HMDA for the application when the applicant refuses to make up their mind?

Also, HOEPA status, rate spread, etc. is all dependent on Reg. Z applicability.

(b) Application—(1) In general. Application means an oral or written request for a covered loan that is made in accordance with procedures used by a financial institution for the type of credit requested.

I think one of my procedures would be requiring that the applicant reveal their plans for occupancy.

I think one of my procedures would be requiring that the applicant reveal their plans for occupancy.

IMHO that is not a procedure. That is a documentation requirement for a completed application.

Your procedure for the type of credit requested would be do you accept in person, telephone, mail or internet applications for the type or credit being requested, i.g. all mortgage applications must either be in person or by telephone.

What occupancy would you report for HMDA for the application when the applicant refuses to make up their mind?

In this particular situation I would report primary residence. "The loan officer had a conversation with the borrower on 6/6 where the borrower informed him that she was now planning to purchase the property as her primary residence,"

If no such conversation took place then you have to make a business decision.

Also, HOEPA status, rate spread, etc. is all dependent on Reg. Z applicability.

I am partially exempt so again if I came to this bridge we would have to make a business decision based on the information on hand and it would be heavily dependent on the business decision made for occupancy.

So I don't see how it can be said that a TRID application happened when the 6 pieces are gathered, but it hasn't even been established that the loan application is subject to TRID because the applicant refuses to state the projected occupancy of the home being purchased.....how when 2 or 3 weeks later is the applicant supplying the occupancy a valid changed circumstance that lets the bank say that is NOW the ACTUAL TRID application date? I would say this scenario isn't specifically contemplated in either reg Z or C but you can argue that if determining the occupancy is the deciding factor in whether the loan is subject to TRID at all, then the absence of that knowledge means there is no TRID application date without it....and in my opinion, the same reasoning could apply to HMDA...in my opinion, the reason it's not specifically discussed is because it is assumed people don't apply for loans buy homes that they don't know what they will do with.

Dan, in your opinion....just how incomplete would an application have to be before it's not an application at all for HMDA? Just to be clear, there is absolutely no sarcasm here...just interested in your opinion.

For example--application is turned in with a subject property address (so it is known it can't be a prequal) and signed by the applicant. That's it--and the applicant never contacts the bank again, and never answers their phone.

Not Dan but starting from the bottom of your posts up, raitchjay, If we get an application with the six (which is what we use to determine a complete app here too) we'd send an LE with an NOI thereby killing two birds with one stone. If we never hear back, we close the file for incompleteness.

As for the OP's situation of TRID vs investment, there is such a thing as consumer investment property. The borrower in question doesn't sound like they're in the business of buying and leasing property. If the borrower is waffling, we'd send the LE, the NOI and be covered.

I'm sure Dan will correct me if I'm wrong.

I wouldn't let the customer "wait". I'd make them say what their plans are NOW. If they change their mind later, they can let us know then. But i don't believe in a system where the applicant says i want to buy a house but i have no idea why.

No where in Reg. B or C does it state you have to have a complete application before you have an application subject to the regulation.

Reg B requires you to take action within 30 days after receiving an incomplete application. See 1002.9(c).

Reg C does not exempt an incomplete application from coverage. If it does please show me the citation.

Dan, so if an applicant submits his name and a subject property address and that's it...HMDA reportable?

I would never argue that you have to have the reg. B version of a "complete" application..that is, all that you need to decision the loan. But i would also argue that a URLA with an applicant name and a subject property address and no other information is not an "application".

2(b) Application
1. Consistency with Regulation B. Bureau interpretations that appear in the official commentary to Regulation B (Equal Credit Opportunity Act, 12 CFR part 1002, Supplement I) are generally applicable to the definition of application under Regulation C. However, under Regulation C the definition of an application does not include prequalification requests.




2(f) Application.
1. General. A creditor has the latitude under the regulation to establish its own application process and to decide the type and amount of information it will require from credit applicants.

(f) Application means an oral or written request for an extension of credit that is made in accordance with procedures used by a creditor for the type of credit requested. The term application does not include the use of an account or line of credit to obtain an amount of credit that is within a previously established credit limit. A completed application means an application in connection with which a creditor has received all the information that the creditor regularly obtains and considers in evaluating applications for the amount and type of credit requested (including, but not limited to, credit reports, any additional information requested from the applicant, and any approvals or reports by governmental agencies or other persons that are necessary to guarantee, insure, or provide security for the credit or collateral). The creditor shall exercise reasonable diligence in obtaining such information.

IMHO the following is giving the financial institution the latitude to determine what information it requires to have a complete application.

Official Interpretation
2(f) Application.
1. General. A creditor has the latitude under the regulation to establish its own application process and to decide the type and amount of information it will require from credit applicants.

Dan, so if an applicant submits his name and a subject property address and that's it...HMDA reportable?

If they submitted the information under one of your application platforms, why wouldn't it be an incomplete application that would require follow-up?

All I originally said, and I stick by that statement, is for HMDA you can't require the TRID 6 pieces of information before you have an application covered by HMDA. The OP referred to a complete application and HMDA coverage is not nor has it ever been dependent on a complete application.

I certainly would follow up; but if the application never gets updated beyond name and subject property address, then what?

I respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree, but 2(f) references "application" not "completed application".....but Reg. B could certainly have been more clear about what they meant.

I'll state again as well.....i'm not saying you have to have a "complete application" for HMDA either...i'm saying you have to have an "application" though, and in my opinion, Reg. B gives banks the latitude to say that incomplete information on an application form that doesn't give the creditor enough of a basis to determine what the applicant is trying to apply for isn't an "application"...not that it isn't a "complete application"...it's not an "application".

It refers to the application process, not what is an application.

Official Interpretation
2(f) Application.
1. General. A creditor has the latitude under the regulation to establish its own application process and to decide the type and amount of information it will require from credit applicants.

You can establish your application process/procedures but I don't think you can say under Reg. B you can require certain information before you have an application, you can require the information you need to make the credit decision in order to have a completed application which then kicks in the notification timing requirements. Until you get that information then you have an incomplete application under Reg. B and IMO Reg. C.

I think we most likely have reached the point where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Yes, good discussion Dan.

Yes it was and hopefully we helped more people than we confused.

To clarify, by "complete application" I mean that we have the information we need to take the file from "inquiry" to "application". Again, since HMDA does not define what an "application" is, we take TRIDs definition needing name, SSN, property address, and at least stated/estimated amounts for income, property value, and loan amount. We do not require verification documents (W2s, paystubs, etc.) but do require the six pieces of information per guidance from a Banker's Compliance Consulting training

but do require the six pieces of information per guidance from a Banker's Compliance Consulting training

I have the upmost respect for the people at BCC and I have sat in on several of their trainings but requiring the 6 pieces of information before you consider having a HMDA covered application is incorrect advice IMO.

LSB HMDA today I go to your website and fill in the following information on your application form - Name: Dan Persfull, address - 123 Main St - Anytown, IN, Amount requested - $130,000 , Purpose - home improvements.

I just gave you an online application, as incomplete as it may be, that is subject to HMDA. The application date would be today's date.. This is assuming you accept applications through your bank's webpage.


You might want to discuss this with your Examiner In Charge.