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#238753 - 08/31/04 07:37 AM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Don't bother with any annoying context, straw. The President's actual comments seem to me to express the idea that we will never have a definitive moment when you can say, ok, the war on terror is over, we've won. We can continue to seek out the terrorists where they hide and plan and train, and keep our country safe in that way; but we must also bring freedom to the parts of the world that have been a haven to the terrorists.
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#238754 - 08/31/04 12:10 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 737
Midlands SC
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Quote:
Don't bother with any annoying context, straw.
The President's actual comments seem to me to express the idea that we will never have a definitive moment when you can say, ok, the war on terror is over, we've won. We can continue to seek out the terrorists where they hide and plan and train, and keep our country safe in that way; but we must also bring freedom to the parts of the world that have been a haven to the terrorists.
I think it would be unrealistic to think any one country or president could completely eliminate terrorists.
It will be an ongoing process that I hope we can keep out of our country!
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#238755 - 08/31/04 12:15 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won *DELETED*
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Post deleted by zaibatsu
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#238756 - 08/31/04 12:51 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Power Poster
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,455
The Pennant Race
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I think the difference the President was pointing to is even more fundamental than that. There is no state or country that is the sole harborer of terrorists. There will be no peace treaty; no day of jubilation in the streets; nor any declaration by Congress. Terrorism and the people who advocate it will simply be so marginalized that they will give up.
Sadly, that day is a long way off, I'm afraid.
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#238757 - 08/31/04 12:53 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won *DELETED*
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Post deleted by zaibatsu
Last edited by zaibatsu; 08/31/04 01:40 PM.
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#238758 - 08/31/04 01:17 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Agreed pbrinker. I agree. So, long as their are Democrats in the US, there will always be....oops, wrong conversation.
Z...you just can't help yourself can you? Are you in lockdown overload til Nov. 2nd?
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#238759 - 08/31/04 01:19 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Power Poster
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,455
The Pennant Race
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You are right, Z. It is the wrong conversation. I think it's time we all forget the campaign rhetoric and bs and remember that the Democrats are not the enemy. The vast majority of them are just as patriotic and passionate about this country as we are. Just as many of them have gone into armed services and given the last full measure of devotion. Their only crime is that they disagree with us about how we move forward.
Calling them "dimobulbs" and questioning their patriotismdoesn't diminish them... it diminishes us. And it doesn't do one da#$ thing to persuade them to join us.
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#238760 - 08/31/04 01:21 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won *DELETED*
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Power Poster
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Post deleted by zaibatsu
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#238762 - 08/31/04 02:22 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Gold Star
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 274
New England
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Quote:
After basing large part of campaign on being the person to win the war, he now says we cannot win.
This is not quite accurate.
There are two parts that, while interconnected, are mutually exclusive in their goals and focus.
The first part is Operation Iraqi Freedom. This was prosecuted as a response to what was deemed an imminent threat posed by a specific dictorial government and a specific dictatorial leader of that government. It was widely known that this dictator had been directed repeatedly to come into compliance with a U.N. agreement that the dictator had previously signed, pledged to abide by, and to allow inspectors free access to validate that no mass-destructive weapons systems were being manufactured. After repeated futile attempts to verify that compliance with the tenets of the agreement were assured, we were forced into taking action. We quickly achieved superiority, promoted the collapse of the government, and captured the dictator. Residual insurgency is what is occurring now.
The second part of the overall war on terrorism is largely directed at Islamic fascism and is most notably manifested by Al Qaeda and its political, religious, and governmental extremism. This type of terrorism was not even understood five years ago. It defies any conventional warfare doctrine. There are no "standards" of fairness, dogma, logic, or body of principles; there is no Geneva Convention. Terrorism in this manner is meant to permit a smaller nation lacking military superiority to invoke an equal status based on the notion of randomly striking in unconventional, unsuspecting ways. President Bush stated that this latter type of terrorism might never be conquered, but that we could continue to work toward making it more difficult for terrorists. The President did not misspeak.
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#238763 - 08/31/04 02:54 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Power Poster
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,455
The Pennant Race
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If you meant "Am I inferring that you have done that?," the answer is, no. I have never know you to act in that way. But others have. I was simply making an observation in a conversation we were having. But since you are asking, I thought your little aside about Democrats was below your usual high standards.
As an attorney accustomed to developing arguments, I am certain you agree that such tactics are poor argumentation techniques.
Last edited by pbrinker; 08/31/04 02:57 PM.
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#238764 - 08/31/04 03:03 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 34,318
under the Lone Star
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Ask the Israelis if a war against terrorism can be "won". Today, two bombs go off in Beersheba, where none had been detonated for nearly 4 years. It only takes one terrorist intent on murdering and spreading fear. How do you win against that ?
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#238765 - 08/31/04 03:15 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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As long as there are extremists, muslim or otherwise, there will be terrorism. It can never be won, just limited. Better to fight on their turf than on ours!
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#238769 - 08/31/04 03:39 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
We live in a fallen world. Good and evil do exist and there will always be the threat of terrorism until (based on my beliefs)Christ returns.
Very good beliefs CreditCop!!
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#238770 - 08/31/04 03:56 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Quote:
I just wanted to see what the regular posters would say to this.
While I do agree that the war on terrorism will not have a finish line where we declare victory, I do have an issue because the administration has not said this until now.
The public statements have always been that we will win; landing on the carrier and declaring mission accomplished in Iraq is an example. Whether the mission was finding WMD, routing terrorists, or bringing democracy to Iraq, at that time, none of these missions were accomplished, and remain illusive.
I found the comment refreshing in that it reflects the reality that there has always been terrorism, there always will be and it ebbs and flows through history.
I think if you were to ask a follow-up on this, Mr. Bush would explain it as, yes, we are winning the war on terror, but there won't be a victory party. He was a little unclear in his comments, but I don't see a reason to get all upset about this.
Regarding the "mission accomplished" speech: Retired General Tommy Franks wrote in his recent book that HE asked the President to give a speech marking the end of major combat operations. That mission, and the mission of that carrier, was accomplished. Mr. Bush said in that speech:
Quote:
We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We are bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We are pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime, who will be held to account for their crimes. We have begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons, and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. We are helping to rebuild Iraq, where the dictator built palaces for himself, instead of hospitals and schools. And we will stand with the new leaders of Iraq as they establish a government of, by, and for the Iraqi people. The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done. And then we will leave — and we will leave behind a free Iraq.
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The Battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001, and still goes on.
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#238771 - 08/31/04 05:00 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Gold Star
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 274
New England
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Quote:
The public statements have always been that we will win; landing on the carrier and declaring mission accomplished in Iraq is an example. Whether the mission was finding WMD, routing terrorists, or bringing democracy to Iraq, at that time, none of these missions were accomplished, and remain illusive.
You are converging issues here, as well as adding your own feelings and interpretation to the mix. Nobody, including the President, ever said the war on post 9/11 terrorism has been won. What was said by the President and others was that we had successfully collapsed the government of Iraq and have captured its dictator. We have reached a demarcation point in the Operation Iraqi Freedom, and there was noting inappropriate about the President's marking this by landing on the aircraft. Yes, there is insurgency, but that will happen. However, there never was a timeline or action plan stating when and if weapons would be located, or whether people would happily accept freedom.
We would all like to see an end to Iraqi insurgency, and an end to the bigger issue of global Islamic fascism, but even John Kerry sitting down with the United Nations and third world nations won't guarantee that every potential incident will be prevented.
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#238772 - 08/31/04 05:02 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won *DELETED*
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Post deleted by zaibatsu
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#238774 - 08/31/04 05:50 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won *DELETED*
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Post deleted by zaibatsu
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#238775 - 08/31/04 07:10 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,164
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Maybe, but I am not addressing this to anyone in particular. I think some here who are too mean spirited for my taste and others are too soft skinned.
But, most are just right. What is really interesting is that Kerry supporters are really the testy bunch, occasionally getting one of us going down the low road with them. You’ve attempted on several occasions to prompt the Kerry troops to post facts or opinions directly relevant to a post, but that’s not happening. Debate is not possible when one is dealing with an impassioned Kerry supporter. They have opinions, but no facts, no proof, just a feeling about ‘things.’ They are a sensitive bunch, just like Kerry/Edwards.
The bottomline: This time around we are electing a Commander-in-Chief with that part of the job of President more important than any other task at this point. If we screw this up, the next generation will pay a huge price.
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#238776 - 08/31/04 07:20 PM
Re: Bush states terrorism war cannot be won
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Quote:
I think if you were to ask a follow-up on this, Mr. Bush would explain it as, yes, we are winning the war on terror, but there won't be a victory party. He was a little unclear in his comments, but I don't see a reason to get all upset about this.
My goodness - I am in the wrong business!
Bush, today:
Quote:
Listen, I should have made my point more clear about what I meant. What I meant was that this is not a conventional war. It is a different kind of war...And in a conventional war there would be a peace treaty or there would be a moment where somebody would sit on the side and say we quit. That's not the kind of war we're in, and that's what I was saying. The kind of war we're in requires, you know, steadfast resolve, and I will continue to be resolved to bring them to justice, but as well as to spread liberty.
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