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#294386 - 12/29/04 08:52 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
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Yes and that is true to a point, but I know them personaly and some of them feel they have no other choice. that is why I am a big fan of the war on drugs. in espanola you can walk up to a perfect stranger and ask for $20 of your drug of choice and nine out of ten times they will give it to you without thinking twice. I think that if we got some of those drugs of the streets maybe things could change.
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#294387 - 12/29/04 08:52 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 952
Stockton, California
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Huddy I am referring to eletricity in third world countries not America where in some placed it's illegal to have fires outside..I have friends in Papua New Guinea who have fire pits and cook their meals this way because they have no eletricity.
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#294388 - 12/29/04 08:53 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 952
Stockton, California
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oops sorry - I meant buddy....sorry for the typo...
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#294389 - 12/29/04 08:58 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,507
Up North
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This is kind of the point I was making earlier about treating people like victims. I agree with you about getting the drugs off the streets and I would wholeheartedly advocate assisting these people in changing their lives. It would be easier to just throw some food at them and call it good but the real answer is to work with them and teach them. That would be much more beneficial than just giving handouts. We have a tendency in this country to put band-aids on things instead of fixing them.
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#294390 - 12/29/04 09:00 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
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that is a good point, but try digging a pit in a single wide trailer and it wouldn't work, and trying to dig a pit in an adobe house would be like trying to dig one in a brick wall. I'm not saying that they have no options, every person who has ever come to my house for help I help. It's all a matter of forgetting about their pride and asking.
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#294391 - 12/29/04 09:03 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 952
Stockton, California
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I agree buddy - a lot of people won't ask for help. On the other note I also agree with SarahH in regards to helping people improve their lives rather than just placing band-aides.
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#294393 - 12/29/04 09:12 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,362
Colorado
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I'm glad of that too! BTW, it's "no one" not "noone". 
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#294394 - 12/29/04 09:12 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
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I was waiting for that...
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#294395 - 12/29/04 09:14 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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Quote:
So if we take away his fish supply we teach him how to raise livestock, grow a garden, hunt, etc.
OK Sarah, but what if they're already doing all of this? Arctic villagers live a subsistance lifestyle. They hunt, gather berries, fish, etc. They can not plant gardens because crops do not grow in the arctic. Their diets, over the years, have substituted other things for crops to stay healthy. They use the little money they get for fishing to cover expenses like heat and food to supliment what they can not find on their own. They live hundreds of miles from anywhere. They can not drive to Walmart or Costco and find cheeper food. They can, freeze or dry everything they can. The oil in the fish is an important part of their diet as well, providing them the fat they need to substain themselves during the winter.
So we then allow commercial fishing to wipe out their fish. They have no money for heat, and no fish to feed their people. Better yet, HUD flys in and builds a medical clinic on their only berry patch. (It's happened). Now no fish, no berries....what do you do?
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The single mother that works three jobs to support her family is to be admired and I don't have a problem at all with her receiving assistance.
Neither do I. I think a work component is a good part of any welfare program but what if there is no work? Literally none. No one pays you to pick up trash on the side of the road because there is no road. All of the positions in the village are filled. No one needs to pay you $5 to mow their lawn because there is no lawn, and there is no extra fivers to go around.
It's not always as easy as teaching someone to plant tomatoes  Most of the problems caused in these pockets of poverty come from someone who thinks this will be the solution and pulls out the berry bushes to plant tomatoes. The tomatoes die, and the thousand year old berry patch disapears. 
Jokerman, I'm not going to dignify that with a remark beyond stating that there is a huge difference between individual volunteer contributions and a country. I volunteer 100% of my time and expertise to help in the US though, with a particular focus on Alaska, because I like to see my own back yard grow stronger.
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#294399 - 12/29/04 09:26 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
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I am on the Board of Directors of a Homeless Shelter in Florida, and from what I have seen, the great majority (not all mind you, but most) of the homeless are homeless by choice. They are either unable or unwilling to accept help and cannot, for obvious reasons, control their addictions. Even though there is help available they make the decision to remain homeless.
I believe that a portion of the homeless suffer from some sort of mental illness, many of them self medicating with alcohol and drugs. Neither of those conditions are free choice on the part of the individual. Unless you or one of your family members lives with mental illness and/or addiction, it is impossible to understand. We are fortunate, our son who is bipolar and a recovering alcoholic has reached out for help and is working hard but there are times when life is almost too hard for him. Our aid needs to be spent at home in the USA and overseas.
Addiction is not one's fault but recovery is one's responsibility. And yes, I speak from experience.
Yes, you are right. Some are not capable of taking that responsibility and I hurt for them. But for many, those capable of being honest with themselves, there is a way out, a way to get help. And yes, I speak from experience also.
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#294400 - 12/29/04 09:33 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,507
Up North
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So there is no one willing to help these people become advocates for themselves? Sure, get them some food and assistance with the heat, etc. but if it's one thing Americans know how to do it is voice their opinion and take action! I am not without sympathy (or maybe the correct term is apathy) for the Native Alaskans because the lives they have led for hundreds of years is changing. But, in an industrialized society, it is not possible to survive with a subsistence lifestyle. I'm not saying what is happening to them is a positive thing but when life throughs you grapes, you make wine! I'm not trying to make light of their situation because it does truly break my heart to seen a culture die...and that is what is happening. But, good or bad this has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years. Adaptation, survival of the fittest, call it whatever you wish. We are human beings, however, with the ability to feel compassion so we will not let these people just die off. What I guess I am saying (did someone say making a short story long) is that we need to help them adapt instead of making them feel like victims. We need to provide them with the means (I don't necessarily mean money) to HELP THEMSELVES. Sorry, didn't mean to shout. Dawnie, I completely understand where you are coming from on this and I respect your opinion. I hope you can say the same for me?
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#294401 - 12/29/04 09:34 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,241
middle of the country
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Sorry, last anon was from me, forgot to sign in.
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#294402 - 12/29/04 09:38 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
to answer a couple questions in one post MP, what good is ramon noodles if you dont have electricity to cook them with.
You know, you don't have to cook those noodles. They are edible without cooking them. For that matter, *gasp* how on earth did we cook ANYTHING before Thomas Edison and the microwave?
Go to a church. Ask to use their electricity. I guarantee you they will not only heat up your noodles for you, but give you a blanket, some canned food, and invite you to eat more than you brought.
The only excuse is pride and ignorance, neither of which should be given aid!
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#294403 - 12/29/04 09:52 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
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Quote:
Quote:
what good is ramon noodles if you dont have electricity to cook them with
Sorry. Not buying it. I remember back when I was a teenager and my mom worked two jobs just for what we have. There was a night when we had no electricity, no heat, etc (do I hear a violin in the background? ). I scrounged up what I could...Made a dinner of some peanut butter, saltine's, a wine cooler, and marshmallows for desert. Was it healthy? Nope. But a hell of a lot better than going across the street to the drug dealers who could have given me crack.
I am a liberal person and I do fight for the poor...but I am so very very tired of excuses. You can go to the Church pantry's for food. You can go to the shelters. There are choices that don't involve drugs.
I am not trying to make excuses for them, I'm just trying to show you what it is like from their pov. It is so easy for them to slip into that wide and crooked path but very hard to get out. put yourself in their situation. You just lost your job and got evicted from your house. You try to find another job but no one will hire you, so you go apply at walmart but they turn you down because you dont have a permanant address. so you go to a shelter, but they turn you away because they are full. so you go to a friends house but eventually they kick you out because you aren't helping with the bills. you are still looking for a job but by now haven't showered in days so just your looks alone make it impossible to find work of any kind. you go to the church and they give you a sack of potatos because thats all they can afford to give anyone. your potatos run out and the church says that they can only give you a sack every other week. By now your living under a bridge because no one really wants to help you. a man walks up to you and tells you that if you buy drugs from him you wont be hungry anymore and you will have more energy to look for a new job. Of course you say no. but then he offers you clothing and a shower at his house. You know it is wrong so you still say no, so he brings you some food. for the first time in days you eat something you didn't dig out of the trash, but you are still very weak so he offers you alittle bit of crack for free. he even says he'll smoke it with you to show you that it isn't that bad. How long can you keep saying no??"
Thats how the dealers work they do whatever they can to get you hooked, then they even get you a low-paying high-labor job so you can have money to buy more drugs. It is a horrible cycle that needs to be broken.
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#294404 - 12/29/04 10:00 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
I am not trying to make excuses for them,
Yes, you are. That's exactly what you are doing.
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I'm just trying to show you what it is like from their pov. It is so easy for them to slip into that wide and crooked path but very hard to get out. put yourself in their situation. You just lost your job and got evicted from your house. You try to find another job but no one will hire you.
Better yet, someone just put a gun to your head, took your keys, took your sense of security and you couldn't go back to your home. Been there, done that. No job, no income, savings gone in less than 6 months. But DRUGS didn't solve the problem, in fact they would have simply made it happen FASTER.
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you go to a friend's house but eventually they kick you out because you aren't helping with the bills.
You picked the wrong friends. Real friends would not only not kick you out, they would feed you. Been there, done that.
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you are still looking for a job but by now haven't showered in days so just your looks alone make it impossible to find work of any kind. you go to the church and they give you a sack of potatos because thats all they can afford to give anyone.
And a sack of potatos can feed you for well over two weeks. Mix in some bulk carrots, and an onion and you have a nice stew that can be cooked in a pot over a fire and last for a long time. And if you can afford to buy a single crack rock, you can afford to buy an onion and a bunch of carrots. You can probably even afford a very large head of cabbage!
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It is a horrible cycle that needs to be broken.
The only horrible thing that needs to be broken is ignorance and pride. There is always a way out, and with all the news and knowledge about drugs, noone in the entire US shouldn't know that crack is addictive and isn't food.
Quit making excuses and MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Donate to a church. Open your home to someone who needs a place to live. Don't just say "the government needs to do it for them".
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#294405 - 12/29/04 10:03 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,044
The banana bin
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Don't think that I don't understand...because I do. I'm not that unsympathetic. I've lived a life that hasn't been easy. I have two parents that are both bi-polar with one of them a drug addict. I've been down that road. But I've never played the victim either. That's why I don't understand the 'I have nothing else to lose so I started with drugs'.
The whole topic started with 'We need to help our own'. We have more choices in this country than the undeveloped ones. This why it is important to me to help those that CAN'T help themselves.
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#294406 - 12/29/04 10:52 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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Quote:
So there is no one willing to help these people become advocates for themselves?
Have no fear, these folks are advocates for themselves. They are a strong, proud people, who we have wronged over time. They welcomed us with trust and we gave them measles, tore down their homes and took their best lands. Some of this is ancient history, some is recent. It’s the recent that needs reparations.
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Sure, get them some food and assistance with the heat, etc.
That would be welfare. What we should be doing is teaching them to run power plants and sustainable power. Instead we waste money on a fuel subsidy when what they need is more efficient power. An operating plant and trained workers would provide long term jobs in the community and relief from the high cost of fuel.
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But, in an industrialized society, it is not possible to survive with a subsistence lifestyle.
Actually, yes it is, as long as we don’t over fish their fisheries and build buildings on their berry patch. If we feel that is acceptable we need to provide a different berry patch and a replacement for what the fish do for them.
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I'm not saying what is happening to them is a positive thing but when life throughs you grapes, you make wine!
Ahhh don’t you love the relevance of a catchy phrase like this? Honestly, it does make light of their situation in a big way.
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I'm not trying to make light of their situation because it does truly break my heart to seen a culture die...and that is what is happening. But, good or bad this has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years.
No it’s not. Their culture and traditions are fine as long as we stay out of them. But we had to bring them our god because worshiping the sun was wrong in our eyes, we had to take their home because we had a better idea, we took their children from them and forced them to attend our schools. We’ve done wrong time and time again to people who can survive if we quit screwing with them.
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Adaptation, survival of the fittest, call it whatever you wish.
Right back to the thread topic…if we believe in survival of the fittest, why are we helping these folks? Why not just let those who are the most fit make it and quit worrying about the rest? I’m not for that by any means, but it is what the phrase implies.
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We are human beings, however, with the ability to feel compassion so we will not let these people just die off. What I guess I am saying (did someone say making a short story long) is that we need to help them adapt instead of making them feel like victims. We need to provide them with the means (I don't necessarily mean money) to HELP THEMSELVES.
You aren’t understanding that this is what they want, but we keep interfering. We screw it up time and time again, then put a band aide on things, and say “so long sucker”. The Native American Housing and Self Determination Act is a great example. We provided the means, then we (congress) started screwing with it. Now they can build one house, but not put in a toilet or a sink. And we can only do this at Davis Bacon wages, with work provided by outside sources. How about providing NAHSADA with the ability to train the people in need? How about allowing homes to be built that survive on arctic soil? Neh that would be too easy.
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Sorry, didn't mean to shout. Dawnie, I completely understand where you are coming from on this and I respect your opinion. I hope you can say the same for me?
I don’t expect you to understand the complexity of the situation and I have no issue with the fact that it is hard to comprehend. Most people don’t get it until they spend time in the arctic and see what we’ve done over time. Band aides and catchy phrases won’t help the issue though. I of course respect your opinion, even if I don’t agree with it.  I am just saying that we could throw some value here instead of bombs in Iraq or even just a small portion of what we give away over seas, WITHOUT the darned ties we put on things.
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#294407 - 12/29/04 11:15 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Power Poster
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,507
Up North
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Well, then I guess if the people are strong enough and proud enough to stand up for themselves then we should just stay out of it. Believe it or not, I think we are on the same side of this issue but just coming at it from different directions. And, for the record, I do comprehend the complexities of what is happening in the artic. I grew up in Northern Minnesota...I have been to a reservation...I earned a Bachelor of Arts in Social Studies with a minor in History (most of that an emphasis in Native American studies). If there is one thing in this world that I know, it is the complexity of the situation.
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#294408 - 12/30/04 01:40 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Can I ask what we are doing to educate the youth of America that they can help out in assisting the less fortunate. Also, to those of us who have children, are we teaching them the true meaning of what it is to work hard and make a living?
When I was a kid, way way back, I started my first job at age 12. Now a days, I look around and none of the youth in my area work hard or even know what it's like. We push education and the need for it but we fail to teach the meaning of hard work.
All the homeless and people in poverty had parents and if they taught them the meaning of hard work, they would do whatever to make some money even if it meant doing something not so popular like raking leaves, shoveling snow, delivering newspapers, etc. As a parent of 3 kids (ages 5, 7, 9) I am teaching them that nothing is below them, right from wrong and a hard days work for some pay is better then no work or money.
Just another angle on this whole topic.
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#294409 - 12/30/04 01:54 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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10K Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,766
Turnpike Exit 10
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So, what about the children who are born of these people? Don't they deserve to be cared for properly? They didn't ask to be born in that environment, or for that matter, born at all.
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#294410 - 12/30/04 04:16 PM
Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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We should always provide assistance to our US children.
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