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#301532 - 01/11/05 01:54 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2001
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Quote:
Hating people because they are black, gay, etc, is wrong. Hate breeds hate and it should be punished as such. Crazy guys who beat up other guys in bars randomly is a different type of stupidity.
Hating people and beating people up are two different things. Beating people up is already illegal. Hating people is not. And that's the way it should be. When the hate manifests itself in illegal actions such as assault or vandalism, then the act is what the law needs to deal with, not the constitutionally protected opinions behind the act.
On an unrelated note, I followed the link to the articles, but I couldn't find the video. Could someone point me in the right direction?
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#301533 - 01/11/05 02:05 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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#301534 - 01/11/05 03:12 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Anonymous
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From the Lancaster (PA) newpaper about the incident:
"Police said they charged the Lancaster County men because they acted in a disorderly manner, blocked a public street and disobeyed police orders. The two were removed by a city police crowd-control unit after allegedly creating a disturbance near the main stage as outdoor OutFest activities were getting under way on the afternoon of Oct. 10.
The stage was located near 13th and Chancellor streets.
“The protesters were disrupting the celebration,” Philadelphia police Inspector William Colarulo said.
Colarulo said all 11 were charged that day with criminal conspiracy and disorderly conduct, failure to disperse under official order and obstructing the highway, all misdemeanors.
During the initial court hearing Dec. 14, Assistant District Attorney Charles Ehrlich said the group was not welcome at the OutFest event and incited the festival participants, who could have interpreted the group’s message to be hateful.
Police had ordered the protestors not to block a street and to move from an area where they were creating a barrier to food vendors who had paid for licenses to do business at the event.
Judge William Austin Meehan ordered four of the 11 to stand trial on the charges."
AND significantly:
" Both the prosecutors and defendants claim to have videotape evidence to support their claims.
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#301535 - 01/11/05 05:07 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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OK, I finally found the video, and from what I can see, either the arrests were completely uncalled for, or there's more to the story that the video doesn't show. I'm inclined to believe it's the former, because Christians getting arrested for legitimately causing a disturbance would have been reported by all of the major news outlets. (Even the Philly papers don't have any articles in their archives dated earlier than December 4, almost two months after the event.) In fact, I didn't witness any violence, rioting, swearing, or disorderliness from anybody in the video, on either side. I think both the event attendees and the protesters are to be commended for displaying their differences in a non-threating, non-hostile manner.
It doesn't matter which side of the homosexual debate you're on- this is a wake up call for all of us. On that note, in one article, one of the organizers of the OutFest event even admitted that they had no legal means to keep protesters out, and that the gay-rights movement, especially, should be well aware of the necessity to protect free speech.
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#301536 - 01/11/05 05:32 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Anonymous
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Quote:
or there's more to the story that the video doesn't show
As the quote from the Lancaster story indicates, the prosecution says that they also have some video that supports the charges.
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#301537 - 01/11/05 01:55 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Dawn, I don't believe you've been hitting your cellar too hard, but I have to admit I'm with Z on this one. Killing you because you have red hair and I hate redheads is no different than killing you just because. You are still dead. The action is still a crime.
The only time my motives should matter is if there are no direct witnesses or other evidence linking me to the crime. Motive is important in circumstantial cases, because it provides the jury with a reason to believe that the person accused may have committed the crime. It alos applies to instances of sel-defense. Otherwise, motives are irrelevant.
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#301538 - 01/11/05 02:02 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,984
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This entire dialogue is very disturbing. We do have the freedom to state our opinion under the 1st Amendment of the constitution. That doesn't mean everyone has to like that opinion. Quite a number of folk express themselves everyday in ways I find extremely offensive. Do I need to have them arrested because I find them offensive? If homosexuals (or any other group) has the right to march down the street and express their opinion about a topic, then those with opposing opinions also have the right to do so. This is the American way. We all have an opinion that we think everyone else should hear. The problem is that opposition to an opinion held by a minority of Americans is now considered a crime.
A number of posters to this thread have labeled this type of speech as an act of hatred against a group of individuals. A Christian cannot hate another person. If Christ lives in our hearts, hate cannot also live there. We can however state that certain behaviour is a sin. That does not mean that we hate the individual who is engaged in the sin. We hate the sin that separates them from experiencing the love of God fully in their lives. We ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God. The Bible teaches us that hate is a sin of the flesh to be avoided - along with a host of others. We ALL have to struggle with sin every moment of every day.
We would all do well to remember the following from Galatians 5: 22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." The early Christians also practiced their faith in the middle of an environment hostile to their beliefs.
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#301539 - 01/11/05 04:04 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,184
All over the map.
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Quote:
We do have the freedom to state our opinion under the 1st Amendment of the constitution.
This is not directed at you, Waldensouth, these particular words just reminded me of something my mom always said to me, and I, in turn, say to my daughter. "Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should do something. Just my 2 cents...
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#301540 - 01/11/05 04:18 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels... *DELETED*
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Post deleted by -Z-
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#301541 - 01/11/05 04:29 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Power Poster
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,184
All over the map.
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No argument there Z.
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#301542 - 01/11/05 08:05 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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You see Dawnie, motives are something that juries and judges weigh in setting sentences. This should not be dictated by the penal code.
But then they don't always do this Z. And for this reason, I'm not against harsher sentences for people who commit hate crimes. You may not like my point of view, and you may find that making fun of me is the way to address that, but I'm not the only person in the world to have that view.
To spout the rediculous as an example isn't a fair way to discuss the issue. Yes, I feel that beating a young man to death and leaving his body to be found on a fence is a crime much worse than robbing a random person and killing them. While both are dead, one has motives that are much uglier than the other. They are motives that denegrate our society. They need harsher penalties.
Why is Hitler considered worse than most other world leaders? He killed with hate. He tried to wipe out a race of people just because he didn't like that race. No other reason...he just didn't like Jews (not to forget other groups of people, but I'm just using one example). He wanted Jews dead and he killed millions.
This is not the same as a world leader who goes to war to defend their country or frankly to conqour another for land reasons, etc. He killed his own people because of fear and hate. His country still suffers because this was worse than killing for any other reason. Is that fair? I guess I'd say so.
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#301543 - 01/11/05 08:36 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels... *DELETED*
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Post deleted by -Z-
Last edited by -Z-; 01/11/05 08:39 PM.
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#301544 - 01/11/05 08:40 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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P.S. I hope no one thinks I am picking on Dawnie. We have a mutual respect for each other that cannot be damaged by passionate conversations. At least, that's the way I see it. Dawnie? Yes we respect each other...though you're peeving me off so I'm going to agree to disagree and leave it at that. 
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#301546 - 01/11/05 09:39 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,227
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I thought that motive was used to prove that the crime happened when it isn't obvious. The plaintiff brings together all this proof that the defendant did the crime, and the motive is just another piece of that. I just don't understand how someone could even begin to wonder what a particular person was thinking at the time, and then base their judgement on their thoughts and not just their actions...
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#301548 - 01/11/05 10:29 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
This is not directed at you, Waldensouth, these particular words just reminded me of something my mom always said to me, and I, in turn, say to my daughter. "Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should do something. Just my 2 cents...
I agree with you, Elena. Most of the time we would all do well to keep our opinions to ourselves. But this is America. We pride ourselves on our freedom of speech and other freedoms. This does not mean we always use our freedom wisely. But it does mean that opposing voices should always be given a legal venue to be heard should they so desire it.
The right to PEACEFULLY ASSEMBLE and speak your mind is the number one right our forefathers died for. It is what this country is all about. If you don't like it, feel free to speak your own mind peacefully, or leave the area peacefully, and if that isn't enough, move to Canada where this freedom isn't as high in the rankings of importance as the freedom to be free from being offended.
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#301549 - 01/11/05 10:40 PM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels... *DELETED*
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Post deleted by -Z-
Last edited by -Z-; 01/11/05 11:10 PM.
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#301550 - 01/12/05 01:22 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Hey, could someone be prosecuted under hate crime legislation if they beat up someone they mistakenly thought was gay or black or Jewish. It would not be the truth of the intent that would dictate prosecution would it? If you have the intent to beat a person of a protected class, then you exhibited hateful violence and must be prosecuted under hate crime laws, right?
Absolutely. In fact, it has happened. But there is no "protected class", it would be just the same for a crime committed out of hatred for someone that is straight, white or Christian.
I don't know why you think that it is unusual to enhance punishment based upon the motivation of the criminal. After all, the purpose of criminal punishment is to punish a more culpable criminal, it has nothing to do with "benefitting" a victim.
One example of punishing more harshly based upon motive that should be significant for bankers is the federal statute that adds five years to the crime of identity theft if done for purpose of financing terrorism. Hate crimes are intended to terrorize one segment of a community so legislatures have decided to punish them more severely.
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#301551 - 01/12/05 02:45 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels... *DELETED*
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Post deleted by -Z-
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#301552 - 01/12/05 02:54 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Anonymous
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I just don't think it should be a separate crime
It isn't a separate crime, it just adds to the punishment for whatever crime is committed. I wouldn't be in favor of just making "hate" a crime, but I have no problem with giving someone that commits a crime additional time for trying to terrorize others of whatever group is involved.
Quote:
Isn't the 5 years additional in the crime of identity theft related to the crime of financing terrorism?
No. The five years is over and above whatever punishment there is for financing terrorism.
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#301553 - 01/12/05 03:28 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels... *DELETED*
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Post deleted by -Z-
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#301554 - 01/12/05 03:57 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Anonymous
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Disagree all you want, that's certainly your right. But legislative bodies have made the determination that crimes based on hate are more of a threat to our society than the same action without the implied threat to others.
There is no need to pass laws for "every motive imaginable", however, we as a society are perfectly capable of drawing rational lines between more and less serious crimes.
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#301555 - 01/12/05 04:07 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels...
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 800
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i also disagree with hate crime laws. besides all the aforementioned reasons, who gets to decide the motive in these cases? what if i rear-end somebody in an car accident and the person i hit is in one of these protected classes. what if he argues that he is the victim of a hate crime, not just an accident victim? i could go from a simple moving violation and getting a fine to committing a hate crime and going to prison.
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#301556 - 01/12/05 04:48 AM
Re: This just seems wrong on so many levels... *DELETED*
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Post deleted by -Z-
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