Hi,

I obviously cannot put the details here, but is it insubordination if an officer will not sign off as verifing work that they did not verify? I am being requested to do this as a certain type of officer, but I do not feel my department title obligates me to sign this form when there are officers more directly involved. My refusal to sign is being brought up to senior management tomorrow, and just wondering if I have a leg to stand on. I will not be signing - can I get a disciplinary warning or dismissal for this as an insubordination issue? I have never had a negative issue with this employer before. PLease advise if you know.

Thanks.

i'm trying to get past the fact that you are being asked to sign off as verifying something that you didn't verify....

we have actually fired people for doingwhat you are being asked to do.

I think what I will do is insist on verifying the work and sign off. I think it is a case in which people don't feel like taking the time to do it so they are trying to throw it in my lap and say it is part of my job. Technically, it could be, but I would need the time to get up to speed and verify the item myself. I am sure senior management will agree with me but just wanted to know. thanks.

Anon(1),
I spent almost 23 years in the Navy and I have witnessed what happens to people who have done what you are being asked to do. Their careers have been have been ruined. In essence you are being asked to falsify a document. I would ask the Sr. Mgt. what would the outcome be if you had falsified the document and they found out. Would you have been fired, received a warning, suspension, what? They can't have it both ways.

Seadevil

Always!!! Always!!!! keep your integrity in tact. No bank, person, etc., is worth letting it go. I'd rather be in a food line that lie about verifying something I didn't verify. I've refused similar requests, and when I made it clear that I would be happy to verify then sign, other options for the person asking came up. Sometimes that means another idiot signed the form, but I have my concience to worry about, not theirs.

Any employer that would ask this of me would not be my employer a minute longer. My integrity is not going to be compromised, especially for something so menial.

I would think that you could make a claim to your state's labor board (Dept of Labor, etc) for something like that. Not an HR expert myself - but this seems pretty henky!

So, how'd it go, 1st anon?

It would appear that you are being asked to purjure yourself, which the auditors would possibly find and your career would be over in banking.

I have always said that I would be PROUD to be fired from a job for standing up for what is right. If your refusal to LIE is grounds for dismissal, believe me, something much better will come along. Being fired from a job where you were asked to do something illegal or immoral will only add to your value for another position. BE PROUD OF YOURSELF!!! Collect your unemployment (they wouldn't dare fight your right to collect since you could blow the whistle on them!) and find another job!!! Good Luck!

Hi,

1st anon here---

Just spoke to senior mangement, and with an explanation of why I felt it was not my responsibility to sign I was told I didn't have to and it would go back to the people who should sign and I am now out of it. I didn't get much of an argument, but then there was some hesitation and it was mentioned perhaps calling a consultant outside the bank so I said I already did and that's where I got my information- that ended the conversation with "well then, no problem, don't worry about it, it will be taken care of". I am very relieved but I hope saying I contacted one of our consultants didn't upset senior management too much. Of course I have to think long and hard about my future here anyway.

Thanks to everyone for your input, it truly helped alot.

Have a great day.

Me again,

I may not have thought long and hard enough but decided to look for another job immediately - I don't think I would be comfortable working with people who even asked that I do that. Probably have to take a major cut in pay and title, but it will be worth it. thanks again for all of your help eveyone.

By signing off on something you did not personally verify could put you in greater jeopardy from a legal standpoint. What your supervisor is asking you to do is falsify company documents. If push comes to shove, you could always go to the regulators.

I have seen a loan officer sign loans the President and Senior Credit Officer asked him to make. He had nothing to do with the loan, other than sign his name as the loan officer, and close it with the customer. When the bank failed the first thing examiners did was to go after the loan officer. They went after his Bond and because the loans were so bad, regulators would not approve him to be in an executive officer position. He thought he was just helping these officers in there busy schedule.

He was forced out of the banking business.

Never put your name on something because another officer asks you to. Do not sign off on certifications or audits without being confident they are correct.

I was asked by the President to present loans to the loan committee as if they were my loans. The loans were to his buddies and he was giving the farm away. I told him I wasn't going to present them as they wern't even close to qualifying. In spite of that he chose to ambush me in the committee meeting by telling the Board I had these loans to present.

I started by telling the Board that these were the Presidents loans. The Board spent 5 minutes declining all of them and chastized the President for even bringing them to the committee. To shorten the story I had to tell the President that I wasn't going to shine his shoes, kiss his behind, or go to jail for him. I walked a block down the street and became a Regional VP.

Within 60 days regulators charged the President and several others that catered to the President with Fraud and Theft.

Never sell your soul. Once you do you can never get it back.

Thanks for the input and thanks for sharing your stories Dan. I admire you for standing up for your integrity.

original poster

Years ago (and I mean YEARS), I worked for a lender who I truly adored. He's probably the nicest man I ever met and mentored me into learning loans from the inside out. One day he had a customer who was overdrawn and they were going to close the loan the next day. He asked me to go ahead and fund the loan prior t the documents being signed. It was extremely difficult, but I refused. I just couldn't do it.

Good for you, Don. That is quite admirable.

I was a loan secretary when I first started in banking and the loan officer I worked for tried more than once to get around the 3 day Right of Recission period by trying to get me to backdate loan documents for customers. I always made it a point to let our loan processors know what she was doing and they put a stop to it every time. I certainly was not going to take responsibility for it. She finally accepted the fact that I wasn't going to do it for her without asking questions so she stopped asking me. Something like that really puts a person in an uncomfortable situation, and I know for a fact that if I did do what she asked and we got in trouble for it, she would not have hesitated to blame me for it.

I was a Branch Operations Supervisor for a large mortgage lender years ago. The first loan we closed in our office was originated by our branch manager. It was not approved. It had been rejected and the branch manager wanted me to sign off on it. I refused. From that day forward, she was always picking at me for anything and everything. I eventually left because I simply refused to take her harrassment. You have to stand up for your integrity.

There is an appropriate saying for this thread, I may have read it here on BOL:

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters."

UPDATE from original poster:

Can't go into details, but let's just say chalk one up for the GOOD GUYS! My faith has been restored and I get to keep my job and my integrity!

Way to go Anon....

were they "invited" to leave?