Skip to content
BOL Conferences
Learn More - Click Here!

Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Thread Options
#351704 - 04/27/05 06:55 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
GuitarDude Offline
Power Poster
GuitarDude
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,925
So Cal
Quote:

I should have said the school needs police involvement to keep from being sued. By which, I mean, the school probably did the prudent thing in calling the police. Hope you still agree.




This was my main point. In our letigious society, the only way to avoid getting sued is to call the police. Of course, thanks to the ACLU, you can NEVER avoid getting sued.

As for the possibility that this child has a true emotional problem that led to this whole thing, I guess we will have to wait and see. I just think we jump too quickly to that conclusion. If she does have a true illness, then by all means she deserves patience and help. I think the mother would have explained this to the police, and doubt the police would have cuffed her knowing that. I guess we will have to wait to find this out as well.
_________________________
I've just writed a wrong.

Return to Top
Chat! - BOL Watercooler
#351705 - 04/27/05 07:06 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
zaibatsu Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
It sounds extreme to me, but I am going to withhold judgment until I get a clearer picture of what took place. From what I saw on the video, I do not think handcuffs were necessary. However, I will not say that handcuffs are never permissible for a 5 year old. Five year old children can be stronger than you may think. A five year old that has been raised in a house that fights, may be able to injure a teacher. And a 5 year old with a weapon can be just about as dangerous as an adult with a weapon. Even at the risk of traumatizing a child, if there is prescient fear of bodily harm, I am not ready to rule out the use of handcuffs.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

Return to Top
#351706 - 04/27/05 07:36 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Pup Offline
Power Poster
Pup
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,045
Pedaling along a scenic highwa...
Z, you know I love ya man, but as an adult, I'll take a little bodily harm (weapons aside) from a 5 year old to avoid scarring the kid for life by handcuffing him/her.

I think that there is an unfortunate fear in our schools, but that's definitely an entire topic by itself. I think that that fear is what led to this "arrest".

Return to Top
#351707 - 04/27/05 07:51 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
zaibatsu Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
Quote:

Z, you know I love ya man, but as an adult, I'll take a little bodily harm (weapons aside) from a 5 year old to avoid scarring the kid for life by handcuffing him/her.

I think that there is an unfortunate fear in our schools, but that's definitely an entire topic by itself. I think that that fear is what led to this "arrest".




OK, FraudPup, but if you have a 5 year old child who is grabbing anything they can find to hurt themself or others, you would be a fool to try to physically restrain them. The lawsuit for handcuffing the child would pale in comparison to the lawsuit against a 220 lb. police officer when he hurts that child while trying to restrain them. So, you see, I am as concerned about the child hurting you as I am about you hurting the child.

I have seen several successful lawsuits for police officers restraining people and hurting them. I have not heard of a successful lawsuit for someone being handcuffed. I doubt this child's mother will be successful in any suit against the police or the municipality.
Last edited by Dr. -Z-; 04/27/05 08:00 PM.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

Return to Top
#351708 - 04/27/05 07:52 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Bengals Fan Offline
Power Poster
Bengals Fan
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
GIVE ME A BREAK PEOPLE, scarred for life by one incident of being handcuffed? Scarred for life from one instance of a dog bite? BE PARENTS, TEACH YOUR CHILDREN.

Yes, the parent of this child could rant and rave like some of you are about how horrible this was. They could say how bad the police were for cuffing the child who was out of line. On the other hand, if the parents are lazy, whiny sue happy people, they can look at it another way. This is an opportunity to teach the child something. Teach the child that she acted up, the school needed help, and they called the police who made sure she stopped doing what was wrong. The police helped the school. If she needs help, she can call the police too. Teach her how to call the police if there is a problem. Teach her about 911 and how you can get help in an emergency. She's 5 years old, it's a good time to make sure she can call for emergency assistance. Teach her that there are consequences for her actions. DONT teach her that police are bad. That's on the parents, not the school, not the police.

As for the child who is suffering horribly from a single dog bite, what have you done to help her get over this? Did the dog just chase her down and bite her randomly, or was she trying to touch/pet the dog when it didn't know her intentions? Was the dog in the wrong, and if so, have you protected your child by reporting the incidence and having the dog put down as truely being dangerous? Have you explained about how some dogs are really friendly and others are not? Have you considered finding someone with a really friendly dog to help her get over the fear? Or do you just cuddle her and protect her from every dog she sees? If you protect her from every dog when she gets scared, she will always be afraid because you are confirming her belief that dogs are scary. Teach her the truth.

Return to Top
#351709 - 04/27/05 08:15 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Clown Boy Offline
Power Poster
Clown Boy
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
Wow Michael, I kinda agree with you. (Don't tell anyone, I have a name to keep ) I too think that the mother should use this as a tool to teach her daughter consiquinces for her actions and what the police are for. I still think they went just a tad too far, but why not turn this bad situation into a learning tool?
_________________________
I am the ringmaster of my domain!

Return to Top
#351710 - 04/27/05 08:30 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
HRH Dawnie Offline
Power Poster
HRH Dawnie
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
The thing that really is bad here is that the school has their own security who felt the issue was not important enough to break away from what they were doing to handle it, so we call the real police, who should be dealling with much larger issues than children who are upset and acting out.

I think Jeremy, with his experience is qualified to say it's BS that the police wasted their time on this. I think it's even worse that a police officer in their right mind (guess they weren't) thought that three adults surrounding the child, bending her over a table and forcing cuffs on her was valid.

Her little fit...my nephew, who is a great young man now, and was raised with rules, responsability, respect, etc., had the MOST horrible little temper when he was 5 and 6. He would throw himself on the ground screaming, kicking and thrashing about, stiff as a board if you touched him, making this little girl look like a little darling. If that can be handled without a beating, than this little thing could easily have been handled. Thank god he grew out of that, but to blame it on bad parenting, etc., is uninformed. He was and is a great kid, but he went through a phase (that we all still feel was a nightmare) that sucked. Little Adam turned into little Satan. He was never cuffed and drug off to a police car. The police in our town don't act like that. Thank god for that too!

What happens if someone grabs this little girl outside of her home or school while playing? She's not going to scream for help from the police after this, it just wouldn't be normal. She's got a nice healthy fear established, and rightly so!
_________________________
Dawn Coursey VP/CRA Queen

CRA Rating is in...Oh who cares...I'm home with the baby.

Return to Top
#351711 - 04/27/05 08:44 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Raiderette Offline
Diamond Poster
Raiderette
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,316
New Mexico
Quote:

GIVE ME A BREAK PEOPLE, scarred for life by one incident of being handcuffed? Scarred for life from one instance of a dog bite? BE PARENTS, TEACH YOUR CHILDREN.

Yes, the parent of this child could rant and rave like some of you are about how horrible this was. They could say how bad the police were for cuffing the child who was out of line. On the other hand, if the parents are lazy, whiny sue happy people, they can look at it another way. This is an opportunity to teach the child something. Teach the child that she acted up, the school needed help, and they called the police who made sure she stopped doing what was wrong. The police helped the school. If she needs help, she can call the police too. Teach her how to call the police if there is a problem. Teach her about 911 and how you can get help in an emergency. She's 5 years old, it's a good time to make sure she can call for emergency assistance. Teach her that there are consequences for her actions. DONT teach her that police are bad. That's on the parents, not the school, not the police.

As for the child who is suffering horribly from a single dog bite, what have you done to help her get over this? Did the dog just chase her down and bite her randomly, or was she trying to touch/pet the dog when it didn't know her intentions? Was the dog in the wrong, and if so, have you protected your child by reporting the incidence and having the dog put down as truely being dangerous? Have you explained about how some dogs are really friendly and others are not? Have you considered finding someone with a really friendly dog to help her get over the fear? Or do you just cuddle her and protect her from every dog she sees? If you protect her from every dog when she gets scared, she will always be afraid because you are confirming her belief that dogs are scary. Teach her the truth.




Ok, I'm a good mom. I teach my children, however, my daughter still lashes out like this little girl. Why?? I'll tell again. She has ANXIETY!!! she has been tested for this. She goes to therapy once a week. Maybe this little girl hasn't been tested. Maybe she is stressed about something and she doesn't know how to handle it, hence lashing out.
As far as the dog thing. She has seen nice dogs, and once she warms up to them, she's fine. New dogs are scary for her. The dog that bit her, was her own. She was playing with him, and he bit her in the face. The dog is now at my ex's parents house. The dog is ok with adults, not children. Yes, it was reported and she was taken to the er... Not that it's any of your business..
_________________________
Are you ready for some football?

Return to Top
#351712 - 04/27/05 08:45 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Raiderette Offline
Diamond Poster
Raiderette
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,316
New Mexico
Quote:

Wow Michael, I kinda agree with you. (Don't tell anyone, I have a name to keep ) I too think that the mother should use this as a tool to teach her daughter consiquinces for her actions and what the police are for. I still think they went just a tad too far, but why not turn this bad situation into a learning tool?



What about mothers that do use it as a learning tool? What if the child does have a problem?? What if something bad has happened to this little girl before and that's why the mother had a "no touch" rule??
_________________________
Are you ready for some football?

Return to Top
#351713 - 04/27/05 08:46 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Quadspapa Offline
Power Poster
Quadspapa
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,275
Quadrupletville, Texas
Quote:

Does the kid need police involvement? Probably not. Does the school need police involvement? Probably, if they want to keep from getting sued.




So I guess the parent can or will sue the city for police brutality instead of the school district???
_________________________
"I don''t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." - - Will Rogers (still relevant today)

Return to Top
#351714 - 04/27/05 08:49 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Raiderette Offline
Diamond Poster
Raiderette
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,316
New Mexico
I would sue both. The school for having called the police in general when they had their own security officers that didn't find it important enough, and the police department for handcuffing.
_________________________
Are you ready for some football?

Return to Top
#351715 - 04/27/05 08:53 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
zaibatsu Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
Quote:

I think Jeremy, with his experience is qualified to say it's BS that the police wasted their time on this.




Quote:

What happens if someone grabs this little girl outside of her home or school while playing? She's not going to scream for help from the police after this, it just wouldn't be normal. She's got a nice healthy fear established, and rightly so!




There is just so much to disagree with here, I don't know where to start.

I am reserving judgment on whether the handcuffs were appropriate.

I say this with all due respect to Jeremy. Saying that you (Dawnie) believe Jeremy because he has the experience to call this BS does not make sense. Don't the Florida officers have the same, and more recent, experience and training as Jeremy. Why don't you also trust them to say what is and isn't BS?

As far as the little girl losing trust in the police, I disagree. I think trust in police is lost when you need help and the police abuse the situation. That is not what happened here--it wasn't the girl that needed help, it was the teacher. The person who called for help, got help (maybe too much help). I think this little girl can learn from this that when someone calls the police on someone acting incorrectly they can use force to stop them. If she were grabbed outside her school, she'd likely call for help from the police and expect them to treat the perpetrator worse than they treated her when she was the perpetrator. She has a mom who can teach her this or is she too busy lining up a phalanx of attorneys?
Last edited by Dr. -Z-; 04/27/05 08:57 PM.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

Return to Top
#351716 - 04/27/05 08:57 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Raiderette Offline
Diamond Poster
Raiderette
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,316
New Mexico
I disagree Z. She is 5 and still learning about people. She may know that what she did was not ok, and that how she handled it was wrong. She is gonna think that young children get punished unrightly but "superior" people. Cops are scary, even to adults. I hate passing one when I'm driving. I couldn't picture having handcuffs put on, especially at 5. Also, I highly doubt that any good mother would be too busy lining up attorneys to put their child first.
_________________________
Are you ready for some football?

Return to Top
#351717 - 04/27/05 08:59 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Anonymous
Unregistered

There is a sign at my son's school (pre-k, k and 1st in one school) that says (in essence) hitting or otherwise abusing a teacher, staff or another student is a felony and will not be tolerated. Granted, I thought that was a pretty funny sign given the ages accomodated at the school (4-7 yr olds) and the small size of our community, but apparently there have been incidents in the past that warranted this law. Does it apply in our town? I hope we never have to find out!

Return to Top
#351718 - 04/27/05 09:12 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
bluebanker Offline
Diamond Poster
bluebanker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,227
Bear Country
Quote:

I would sue both. The school for having called the police in general when they had their own security officers that didn't find it important enough, and the police department for handcuffing.




Sue the school? Since when did calling the cops become something you could sue over???
_________________________
If you're not first, you're last.

Return to Top
#351719 - 04/27/05 09:17 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
zaibatsu Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
Quote:

I disagree Z. She is 5 and still learning about people. She may know that what she did was not ok, and that how she handled it was wrong. She is gonna think that young children get punished unrightly but "superior" people. Cops are scary, even to adults. I hate passing one when I'm driving. I couldn't picture having handcuffs put on, especially at 5. Also, I highly doubt that any good mother would be too busy lining up attorneys to put their child first.




Assume for a moment that calling the police was the correct thing to do--because we don't know that it wasn't. Say, for example, the school district has a completely "hands-off" policy that requires teachers and administrators to call law enforcement if a child needs to be restrained.

Do you your really think having a big fat cop "sit" on her would have made her trust cops more than if he handcuffed her?

As far as your fear of driving by cops...just take the Hashish out of the trunk and you can relax. <<insert hashish and relaxation joke here>>

I already saw this mom on the TV with an attorney--two days ago.
Last edited by Dr. -Z-; 04/27/05 09:18 PM.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

Return to Top
#351720 - 04/27/05 09:19 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Raiderette Offline
Diamond Poster
Raiderette
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,316
New Mexico
Not really because they called the cops, but because how they handled the situation, especially when they had their own security.
I wouldn't sue for money, that's not an issue. I would sue to have the policy's changed and renegotiated, and for the awareness that this type of thing shouldn't happen to children.
_________________________
Are you ready for some football?

Return to Top
#351721 - 04/27/05 09:19 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
HRH Dawnie Offline
Power Poster
HRH Dawnie
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
Z I feel Jeremy's experience being a police officer is of more value than most. Not all police officers are wondeful unfortunately, but most don't fear little girls and need to cuff them. Intimidating a child is like hitting a puppy. They are innocent until you make them otherwise.

When I was in the 7th grade I called in a bomb threat (they kill you for that now, but in the good old days we got a day outside the school while they searched for the bomb so some of us did it). The police were called, and the search commenced. They figured it was me eventually that afternoon and I was taken into the principals office with four police men. They lectured me! They told me about the lower response time they would have if my grandmother needed them because they were searching the school. They made me feel like the heel I was for doing what I did, then they took me to the police station, in the front seat of the car, not in cuffs, and made me spend the afternoon there learning about what they do, and how I took them away from it for a silly day in the park. IF they would have wanted to cuff me (since I was calm as well as this child when they arrived) I'd probably have freaked out too. Instead of being scared whitless, which I deserved and was old enough to take, I learned a great deal and never did that again. My guess is that the cops in Florida would have shot to kill given their response to a five year old child. Thank god they handled it as any police officer should, verses scaring the crap out of me.

(And now you know why I can never run for president)

A little boy was just arrested here in Anchorage for sodomizing another young boy at school (both were 6). The news covered the police taking him away, scared, crying, etc. They put the little boy in the front of the car, without cuffs. He raped another child. It didn't take 3 big cops to tackle him. Perhaps they recognized that while what this boy did is horrible, it's a sign of something horrible that has probably happened to him in the past. Again, smart policework, not bullying.
_________________________
Dawn Coursey VP/CRA Queen

CRA Rating is in...Oh who cares...I'm home with the baby.

Return to Top
#351722 - 04/27/05 09:22 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
doodle Offline
Platinum Poster
doodle
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 888
colorado
I think it is interesting that so much debate is based on conjecture. We know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the situation. Some of us automatically assume that this is a case of bad parenting, some assume that the child has behavioral issues, we are assuming that the school/police/teacher were negligent in their policies and procedures. We assume that the police did or did not know how to handle the situation. We ASSUME all of this. Unless we are able to see every aspect of this child's homelife and behavioral history, any other precedent setting incidents in the school AND the complete record of how each of the officer's involved were trained as well as a history of their past behaviors on the job, we have absolutely no idea of what is really going on here. We are not going to get objective information from the media, the school, or the child's mother. I understand debating the principle of the issue, but how can you get so defensive about a situation that you know virutally nothing about?
_________________________
You can never get enough of what you don't need to make you happy.~ Eric Hoffer

Return to Top
#351723 - 04/27/05 09:25 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Raiderette Offline
Diamond Poster
Raiderette
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,316
New Mexico
Doodle-
I'm not trying to be defensive (maybe a little). I just know that I have a little girl like this, and I could picture this happening to her. It kinda hit home for me. I know that it's not my parenting leading to her behavioral problems. I know that it could be her mom, or whatever, but she is still a child, and no matter the situation at home, or where ever, the officers went too far.
_________________________
Are you ready for some football?

Return to Top
#351724 - 04/27/05 09:42 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Zamboni Driver Offline
Platinum Poster
Zamboni Driver
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 776
Going round and round
Quote:

Unless we are able to see every aspect of this child's homelife and behavioral history..




Unfortunately for this little girl, we will. Because her parents decided to take this public, the media will pursue her to get the "real story". If there is any sort of problem, it will come out. Instead of being dealt with quietly, it will follow her for the rest of her life. Agree or not with the schools actions, the parents have made the situation far worse for their daughter.

ZD
_________________________
Everything is possible with time and motivation

Return to Top
#351725 - 04/27/05 09:53 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
zaibatsu Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
Quote:

Doodle-
I'm not trying to be defensive (maybe a little). I just know that I have a little girl like this, and I could picture this happening to her. It kinda hit home for me. I know that it's not my parenting leading to her behavioral problems. I know that it could be her mom, or whatever, but she is still a child, and no matter the situation at home, or where ever, the officers went too far.




My wife saw the terror in that young Florida girl's eyes and said she would not tolerate the police treating our 5 year old that way. I did not have the heart to remind her that I have seen that look of terror in our 5 year old daughter's eyes. It happened when she thought there was a bug in her bath. She was screaming in terror: "A BUG!!!! A BUG!!!!!" I calmed her down and told her that it was just a speck to which she responded in terror: "A SPECK!!!! A SPECK!!!!!"

She was no worse for the wear.

You cannot judge the effect of something on a 5 year old by the expressions on their faces or their screams. My daughter bursts into tears when she thinks she is going to be put into timeout.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

Return to Top
#351726 - 04/28/05 04:17 AM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Truffle Royale Offline

10K Club
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 17,408
Thanks, doodlebanker, for your post. It's exactly what I was thinking.

Let's all remember 2 things here, people,
    1)Everything we know is being fed to us by the MEDIA. How many discussions have we had that are peppered with words like "edit" "spin" and "angle"?
    2)Remember the anagram for ASSUME? We're assuming based on media stories. It doesn't get any worse than that!


Saphire, it appears you're much closer to Rie A's mothering than you are to the mother of the little girl in question. No one is attacking you and a number of us agree that the handcuffing part is suspect at the very least. But we don't know the facts even if we've watched the video. I for one, may have an opinon but I certainly can't defend either side unless I were fully informed of all the facts.

The one thing I know is that suing for any reason has made too many of us afraid to use common sense approaches. THAT is why this happened and why tomorrow, there'll be a new story with the same "you can't...I'll sue you" basis.

Return to Top
#351727 - 04/28/05 12:43 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
waldensouth Offline
Power Poster
waldensouth
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,987
FINALLY ABOVE the gnat line
When I first became a foster parent, we were taught how to restrain a child without hurting him/her. It does required physically touching the child and it does involve some risk to your own person - depending on how out of control the child is. Believe me, I have had plenty of bruises, scratches, and bites from this practice. However it is sometimes necessary to restrain the child to prevent them from hurting themselves and others until they can calm down. The children in foster care are all damaged little people and have issues. We were also taught that if we could not restrain them we were to call the police for help and not waste time. The police in our community take the children to the hospital for a psychological evaluation when called in these situations. Fortunately, I never had to call the police for a child in my home although I have spent the night in the emergency room having the psych eval done. None of us know the entire situation for this little girl and I can't say that there is NEVER a time when it is wrong to restrain a child with cuffs. I will state that if the child had truely calmed down and was being cooperative then cuffs were most likely unwarranted.
_________________________
"Once you learn to read, you will be forever free."

- Frederick Douglass




My Opinion Only.

Return to Top
#351728 - 04/28/05 02:44 PM Re: 5 Year Old Handcuffed??????
Blade Scrapper Offline
Power Poster
Blade Scrapper
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
Maybe being handcuffed at 5 will prevent being handcuffed at 16. You know, the whole "my actions have consequences"(beyond my self-esteem) thing.(stir, stir,stir)
_________________________
...you guys, I'm going home

Return to Top
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6