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#384103 - 07/14/05 06:23 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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Quote:
honestly would like to look into the Ba'hai (I think that's how it's spelled) as my impression is they seek to glean the major principles from all religions.
The Ba'hai's miss one major point: The religions of the world can't be reconciled. Jesus is either Lord, lunatic, or liar. For my money, he does not fit the profile of a lunatic or a liar. If you don't follow Jesus, he can't be a prophet for He claimed to be God. I'd have more respect for the Ba'hai's if they called him a lunatic or a liar.
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#384104 - 07/14/05 06:25 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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That's a defensive position which is based upon your faith not the logic which I am seeking. There must be some way to reconcile the two. You are seeking to justify an interpretation to which I do not arrive at.
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#384105 - 07/14/05 06:28 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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That's a defensive position which is based upon your faith not the logic which I am seeking. There must be some way to reconcile the two. You are seeking to justify an interpretation to which I do not arrive at.
Which post are you addressing?
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#384106 - 07/14/05 06:29 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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The reply to my curiosity of Ba'hai
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#384107 - 07/14/05 06:55 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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That's a defensive position which is based upon your faith not the logic which I am seeking. There must be some way to reconcile the two. You are seeking to justify an interpretation to which I do not arrive at.
They depend on humanity for an answer when for thousands of years our humanity (sin) has been the problem. It is definitely a religion that requires a lot of faith because believing man is the solution to man's problems is not "logical."
This is their statement, not mine:
We are a recognized advocate for spiritual solutions based on the Teachings of Bahá'u'lláh on issues such as the elimination of all forms of prejudice with an emphasis on race unity, the equality of women and men, the spiritual education of children, the importance of family cohesion, and the establishment of world peace. Bahá'u'lláh is God’s Messenger for this day, a day in which all humanity is spiritually mature and can visualize the reality of uniting to build the Kingdom of God on Earth.
These are all noble things. But it takes a lot of faith to believe all humanity will become spiritualy mature and acheive it. It certainly is not logical.
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#384108 - 07/14/05 06:57 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 606
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It is your right to believe it, and I would curious to hear CURRENT episodes of where and by whom. And, I am also saying it is not possible. Do you have some examples? I am curious, thanks.
I'm not so sure I like this "current" trap that you're setting, but I'll cite some examples.
Matthew Sheppard, murdered by Aaron James McKinney and Russell Arthur Henderson in 1998. Since being imprisoned, McKinney and Henderson have both attempted to justify their actions by claiming that they were dictated by the Bible.
Paul Hill, a former Presbyterian Minister and anti-abortion activist had has death sentence carried out in 2003 for the murder of Dr. John Britton and his bodyguard, retired Air Force Lt. Col. James Herman in 1994. Paul Hill was quoted as saying: ""I expect a great reward in heaven," and "I am looking forward to glory."
Feel free to dismiss this as "not-current"; however, I believe this examples fully support my earlier quote.
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Chi, your post is hateful toward Christians, while Markin's (graciously edited post) is truthful. Why do you think it is ok to hate Christians and at the same time excuse millions of Muslims who follow a murderous fanatical version of Islam?
This was to be expected. Naturally, I am hateful of Christians because I decided to flip the script on Markin's statement and paint Christians with the wide brush that Markin painted Muslims with.
You call Markin "gracious" for editing his post. Note that I didn't need to edit my post, I put "some" in there from the beginning. Moreover, I didn't need SOMEONE ELSE to remind me to do so. Gracious indeed.
For the record, I don't think it's okay to hate Christians; however, I don't think it's okay to hate ANYONE. In addition, I don't excuse terrorists. My stance has always been that terrorism (or violence in general) is an awful method to make a point.
I'm going to close with this thought: Timothy McVeigh was Christian. The Oklahoma City Bombing had clear ties to Al Qaeda. Many individuals in this thread are attempting to make a clear delineation between good and evil, using Chritianity to represent the good and Islam to represent the evil. Clearly, in the case of Oklahoma City, it was not so black and white.
Terrorism is not religious in nature; however, it can be justified by religion. Terrorism has, and always will be, political by nature.
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#384109 - 07/14/05 06:58 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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The spelling is close enough (baha'i). You should definitly look into that religion. I don't share their beliefs, personally, but it is a beautiful religion. Everything Jesus and Mohammad stood for and everything Christians and Muslims claim to be.
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#384110 - 07/14/05 07:04 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
That's a defensive position which is based upon your faith not the logic which I am seeking. There must be some way to reconcile the two. You are seeking to justify an interpretation to which I do not arrive at.
They depend on humanity for an answer when for thousands of years our humanity (sin) has been the problem. It is definitely a religion that requires a lot of faith because believing man is the solution to man's problems is not "logical."
This is their statement, not mine:
We are a recognized advocate for spiritual solutions based on the Teachings of Bahá'u'lláh on issues such as the elimination of all forms of prejudice with an emphasis on race unity, the equality of women and men, the spiritual education of children, the importance of family cohesion, and the establishment of world peace. Bahá'u'lláh is God’s Messenger for this day, a day in which all humanity is spiritually mature and can visualize the reality of uniting to build the Kingdom of God on Earth.
These are all noble things. But it takes a lot of faith to believe all humanity will become spiritualy mature and acheive it. It certainly is not logical.
How is this "faith" different than yours in Christianity?
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#384111 - 07/14/05 07:45 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
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That's a defensive position which is based upon your faith not the logic which I am seeking. There must be some way to reconcile the two. You are seeking to justify an interpretation to which I do not arrive at.
They depend on humanity for an answer when for thousands of years our humanity (sin) has been the problem. It is definitely a religion that requires a lot of faith because believing man is the solution to man's problems is not "logical."
This is their statement, not mine:
We are a recognized advocate for spiritual solutions based on the Teachings of Bahá'u'lláh on issues such as the elimination of all forms of prejudice with an emphasis on race unity, the equality of women and men, the spiritual education of children, the importance of family cohesion, and the establishment of world peace. Bahá'u'lláh is God’s Messenger for this day, a day in which all humanity is spiritually mature and can visualize the reality of uniting to build the Kingdom of God on Earth.
These are all noble things. But it takes a lot of faith to believe all humanity will become spiritualy mature and acheive it. It certainly is not logical.
How is this "faith" different than yours in Christianity?
Theirs is a faith in man becoming spiritually mature and a Christian's faith is not in his spiritual maturity, which will always be hindered by his sin, but in a work done God alone. I believe Christianity is the only faith that does not depend on works by man for salvation. (I will get some disagreement from some of my Christian brothers and sisters in some denominations that works are not involved, but from my reading of the Bible they are not.)
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#384112 - 07/14/05 07:53 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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You are definately a glass half-empty person then. You strive to find the dissonance within the religions and perpetuate the very root of all that is happening in this world today. Do you think your view of your religion is compatible with God's love of all mankind? Instead you could strive to find the commonalities and look at the other messages you choose to ignore in the bible and try and become a vassal rather than an impediment of his Word.
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#384113 - 07/14/05 07:54 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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Of course I would ask this of our middleeastern friends to but I don't have the access to them as I do to you.
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#384114 - 07/14/05 08:13 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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Quote:
You are definately a glass half-empty person then. You strive to find the dissonance within the religions and perpetuate the very root of all that is happening in this world today. Do you think your view of your religion is compatible with God's love of all mankind? Instead you could strive to find the commonalities and look at the other messages you choose to ignore in the bible and try and become a vassal rather than an impediment of his Word.
Glass half-empty? What optimism have to do with anything? My faith is wholly in God, not in optimism. My glass is not half empty. Thanks to God alone, my glass is overflowing with his goodness. I do not need optimism. I live in His abundant love for all man and his desire to reconcile with all man. His message is not pessimistic. It is a message of great hope to all people because all are separated from Him by their sin, but reconciled with him by accepting a free gift of His son's sacrifice. He is our ONLY hope.
I place my hope completely and totally in God regardless of what man does or doesn't do. If all men, including those like Hitler, Usama Bin Laden, Jeffery Dahmer, etc... don't come together for the Ba'hai's Kumbaya moment, then their message has failed. Since you want logic, what evidence do you have (other than the bombings in London) that all mankind is going to have this spiritual awakening and "build a kingdom."
I think it is arrogance to think that man can reach God. He has tried on many occasions. In fact, he has thought he was God on many occasions.
I can fully see the commonalities in all messages, but I choose not to ignore the fundamental differences. I choose not to ignore Christ's sacrifice.
I am no impediment to His word. However, Christ himself said that he is a stumbling block to many and maybe to you.
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#384116 - 07/14/05 08:30 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Quote:
His message is not pessimistic. It is a message of great hope to all people because all are separated from Him by their sin, but reconciled with him by accepting a free gift of His son's sacrifice.
Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
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#384117 - 07/14/05 08:35 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 776
Going round and round
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Quote:
I'm not so sure I like this "current" trap that you're setting, but I'll cite some examples.
Matthew Sheppard, murdered by Aaron James McKinney and Russell Arthur Henderson in 1998. Since being imprisoned, McKinney and Henderson have both attempted to justify their actions by claiming that they were dictated by the Bible.
Paul Hill, a former Presbyterian Minister and anti-abortion activist had has death sentence carried out in 2003 for the murder of Dr. John Britton and his bodyguard, retired Air Force Lt. Col. James Herman in 1994. Paul Hill was quoted as saying: ""I expect a great reward in heaven," and "I am looking forward to glory."
Feel free to dismiss this as "not-current"; however, I believe this examples fully support my earlier quote.
Chi, I will not dismiss you examples as not being current. However, I don't think they are an adequate comparison. The acts you mentioned were committed by individuals, acting on their own, and claiming to have an interpretation that justified their actions.
I am unaware of any non-fringe denomination of Christianity that promotes the killing of innocent people just because they do not subscribe to that denomination's view of Christianity. However, there have been several Imams, some of them very prominent, that have called for Jihad against the Infidels of the West. Others have praised the suicide attacks, claiming them to be the will of Allah. These are not fringe groups, but well-known Imams.
Do you have any examples of any Christain preachers/ministers/priests or denominations that has called for killing anyone for any reason?
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#384118 - 07/14/05 09:04 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 606
New England
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Quote:
Just because I may sit in a garage from time to time, I am not a buick. What genocide or terrorists acts can be traced to Christian ideology in recent times?
Clearly, you don't know a buick when you see it.
The objective of terrorism is to intimidate government and society. Clearly, Paul Hill was against the practice of abortion. He decided that by murdering a doctor who administers abortions, he could intimidate other doctors and possibly coerce them from continuing the practice of abortion. This, is clearly a terrorist act.
No, it doesn't involve suicide bombers, Allah, or an extremely high bodycount; however, it is still terrorism, through and through.
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Nothing like the terror campaign in Israel or the genocide in the Sudan.
I do not know exactly what you speak of when you mention the terror campaign in Israel; however, I would like to mention that the PLO is slowly moving away from using terrorism as a means of expressing their political agenda and solidifying a bonafide political party. Which, I think is a very good thing.
Interesing that you mention the genocide in Sudan. Those being killed are Muslims. So, while many individuals in this thread point their fingers at "the majority" of Muslims as terrorists, there is another group of Muslims who are being slaughtered ruthlessly by roaming militias of Arabs (janjaweed).
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#384119 - 07/14/05 09:20 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 606
New England
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Quote:
However, there have been several Imams, some of them very prominent, that have called for Jihad against the Infidels of the West. Others have praised the suicide attacks, claiming them to be the will of Allah. These are not fringe groups, but well-known Imams.
I won't disagree with you here. Jokerman made this point earlier and I didn't disagree with him either; however, I do not believe these Imams iterate the will of the majority. Jihad is not a pillar of Islam, it is a concept that has been perverted to suit the will of those wishing to enact political change through violence.
We cannot fight this war against Islam. We must fight this war against Terrorism.
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Do you have any examples of any Christain preachers/ministers/priests or denominations that has called for killing anyone for any reason?
Off the top of my head? I honestly can't think of any, save for Westboro Baptist Church who constantly insists that "god hates fags" and that they should "repent or perish". In addition, they "glorify" the death of Matthew Shepard by having his picture, in flames, on their website with a counter that indicates how many days he has been in hell.
That is some very strong rhetoric in my opinion. Is it terrorism? Perhaps, it's a stretch, but perhaps; however, this is clearly a message of vehement hate from a group of people who practice a peaceful and loving religion.
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#384120 - 07/14/05 09:29 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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Quote:
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Just because I may sit in a garage from time to time, I am not a buick. What genocide or terrorists acts can be traced to Christian ideology in recent times?
Clearly, you don't know a buick when you see it.
The objective of terrorism is to intimidate government and society. Clearly, Paul Hill was against the practice of abortion. He decided that by murdering a doctor who administers abortions, he could intimidate other doctors and possibly coerce them from continuing the practice of abortion. This, is clearly a terrorist act.
No, it doesn't involve suicide bombers, Allah, or an extremely high bodycount; however, it is still terrorism, through and through.
No doubt and condemned by Christians, all Christian denominations, and God himself. So, you want to compare the acts of a mad man to the acts of fundamentalist Muslims with millions of supporters and even more sympathizers?
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Nothing like the terror campaign in Israel or the genocide in the Sudan.
I do not know exactly what you speak of when you mention the terror campaign in Israel; however, I would like to mention that the PLO is slowly moving away from using terrorism as a means of expressing their political agenda and solidifying a bonafide political party. Which, I think is a very good thing.
Interesing that you mention the genocide in Sudan. Those being killed are Muslims. So, while many individuals in this thread point their fingers at "the majority" of Muslims as terrorists, there is another group of Muslims who are being slaughtered ruthlessly by roaming militias of Arabs (janjaweed).
Yes, and Jefferey Dahmer was slowly working toward vegetarianism before he was caught. You seem to be an apologist for anything that is not Christian.
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#384121 - 07/14/05 09:31 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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No one in this thread has pointed at a majority of Muslims as terrorists. Does anyone think that?
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#384122 - 07/14/05 09:35 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Posts: 10,124
Way, way south.
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I am curious as to everyone's thoughts on Profiling.
Anyone care to share?
I know it's a slippery slope, but lets keep it civil and adult.
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#384123 - 07/14/05 09:38 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
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Before 9-11-01 I was totally against profiling. Now I frown on it, (because I have many Muslim friends who are profiled all the time) but if that is what it takes to protect my way of life in America, I'm not gonna complain too much.
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#384125 - 07/14/05 09:45 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Gold Star
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 274
New England
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Quote:
No one in this thread has pointed at a majority of Muslims as terrorists. Does anyone think that?
This is obviously a baited question, or it is from an uninformed contributor.
The principal terrorist risk posed to the United States and to Western Europe, at least for the next decade, is from middle-eastern males who are muslim. This is not "profiling", but is based on a simple risk assessment of past events, coupled with more recent events. There are other types of terrorism, such as narco-terrorists, etc., but the leading terrorist threat is from middle-eastern religious fanatics.
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#384126 - 07/14/05 10:10 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
No one in this thread has pointed at a majority of Muslims as terrorists. Does anyone think that?
This is obviously a baited question, or it is from an uninformed contributor.
The principal terrorist risk posed to the United States and to Western Europe, at least for the next decade, is from middle-eastern males who are muslim. This is not "profiling", but is based on a simple risk assessment of past events, coupled with more recent events. There are other types of terrorism, such as narco-terrorists, etc., but the leading terrorist threat is from middle-eastern religious fanatics.
No. You misunderstand Jay-Risk. Chi said that posters here pointed at a majority of Muslims as terrorists. I think he is dead wrong. But I think that Muslims who are terrorists, are would-be terrorists or are sympathetic with the Muslim terrorists, outnumber terrorists from any other religion by odds greater than 1,000,000 to 1.
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#384127 - 07/14/05 11:01 PM
Re: Jihad Is Knocking
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Anonymous
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I am a Muslim and as far as I know every true Muslim believes in the cause although they may not support the method currently being used by the freedom fighters.
We are Muslims first and citizens of a country second. Our allegence is to Islam. Period.
Does that mean we all are terrorists?
I fully support the ultimate goal that there has to be only one religion on this earth as proscribed by Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). I prefer the way Iran was taken over by the Muslims – Iran was not a Muslim nation 1000 years ago.
Most Caucasian people have a very low birth rate because they chose not to have children (busy in self gratification)or prefer to get married to the same sex. So we will be filling the vacuum of low population growth by migrating to such countries under the pretext of getting asylum pointing to oppressive regimes out our Muslim nations. Slowly we will be overrunning the adopted country with high birth rate.
This way there is no need to shed blood of the innocent, which the Koran is against anyway. France is a good example where our population is growing at a rate of 245% a year. An average Muslim family in France has to have 4-5 children. Spain, Holland and England will all fall one by one. This is not a struggle of a week or a year – this has been going on for a thousand years. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that in another 100 to 200 years, because of the liberal immigration policies of the West, people of my faith will overrun most of the western nations.
I believe in the non-violent takeover of the world.
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