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#384843 - 07/13/05 03:49 PM Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
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President Bush promised to fire the person responsible for the leak of Valerie Plame's name as a CIA agent which resulted in the article written by Robert Novak. Now that Karl Rove, through his attorney, has acknowledged that he is the leak, President Bush should live up to his work and fire Karl Rove.

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#384844 - 07/13/05 03:53 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Clown Boy Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,934
here and there
Quote:

...President Bush should live up to his work...


Listen to yourself, do you really expect a politician to live up to his word?? (This is not intended to be a blow against GWB, just politicians in general)
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#384845 - 07/13/05 04:01 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
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Quote:

Quote:

...President Bush should live up to his work...


Listen to yourself, do you really expect a politician to live up to his word?? (This is not intended to be a blow against GWB, just politicians in general)




I am in TOTAL agreement with you. My post is intended to show just how hypocritical the right can be. If the shoe was on the other foot (i.e. democratic president), the outcry would be deafening.

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#384846 - 07/13/05 04:02 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
MB Guy Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 10,124
Way, way south.
Quote:

President Bush promised to fire the person responsible for the leak of Valerie Plame's name as a CIA agent which resulted in the article written by Robert Novak. Now that Karl Rove, through his attorney, has acknowledged that he is the leak, President Bush should live up to his work and fire Karl Rove.




Two things:

1. If you listen to the President's exact quote, it wasn't that he would fire the person responsible for the leak, he said it would be "dealt with." Those were his exact words, not what Dean was spewing. Firing was never mentioned. Look it up.

2. I believe, and the jury is still out on this one so to speak, that: a) Rove has not done anything "technically" illegal in this case; and b) When was Rove convicted or proven of anything so far?
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#384847 - 07/13/05 04:04 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

2. I believe, and the jury is still out on this one so to speak, that: a) Rove has not done anything "technically" illegal in this case; and b) When was Rove convicted or proven of anything so far?




Convicted!? Illegal!? Where was that even mentioned? What are you smokin'?

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#384848 - 07/13/05 04:06 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Rove has not done anything "technically" illegal in this case




So, disclosing the identity of a CIA operative (i.e. spy) is not illegal? Is it treasonous? What would you be saying if it was a democratic adviser to a democratic president? You wouldn't be outraged!? YEAH, RIGHT!

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#384849 - 07/13/05 04:14 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Rove is the devil.
"The greatest trick the devil pulled was to convince the world he doesn't exist"
I don't care what Bush said. Rove is the center of the right wing political world. To expose someone who's job is protecting our country and then to turn it into a hesaid she said political game just shows me how politically biased the posters here are. If you are all so pro-American you should be outraged at him. But you are not because he is the source of your W '04 team pride.

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#384850 - 07/13/05 04:25 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Posts: 12,846
Quote:

President Bush promised to fire the person responsible for the leak of Valerie Plame's name as a CIA agent which resulted in the article written by Robert Novak. Now that Karl Rove, through his attorney, has acknowledged that he is the leak, President Bush should live up to his work and fire Karl Rove.




No, Mr. Rove's attorney has not "acknowledged that he is the leak" - what he has acknowledged is that in response to an inquiry about Ms. Plame's husband's column, Mr. Rove noted that her husband had been chosen for an assignment based on that relationship.

Ms. Plame's husband, Joe Wilson, has made multiple statements that are demonstrably false. Mr. Rove was explaining that he was not chosen for this assignment by the White House, using information that he likely did not obtain through classified sources (Adrea Mitchell of NBC admitted that Ms. Plame's occupation was well known in DC circles).

What we know:

1. Mr. Rove did not plant the story.
2. Mr. Wilson is the only person in this story to make statements that have been proven false.
3. The prosecutor apparently is after something we don't know, since Judith Miller, of the NYT is still in jail, refusing to out her source, which it can be assumed is someone other than Karl Rove, since he has permitted anyone he talked to on the guarantee of anonymity to break that guarantee.
4. Ms. Miller's paper, after demanding an investigation into this nefarious "leak," is now obstructing that same investigation.

So, what we really want to know is, who is Judy Miller's source? Anyone want to take bets on Joe Wilson?

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#384851 - 07/13/05 04:27 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
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What is your response to my above post if he had did it? Are you going to stand by your man or are you going to be an American and stand up for our country?

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#384852 - 07/13/05 04:30 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Anyone want to take bets on Joe Wilson?




So, you're claiming that her husband ratted her out!? You are one delusional #$%, Jokerman.

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#384853 - 07/13/05 04:31 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

I say give Karl Rove a medal, even if Bush has to fire him.

Why? Because Valerie Plame should have been outed by somebody. And if nobody else had the cojones to do it, I'm glad Rove did if he did do it, and he still says he didn't.

Why should she have been outed? Well despite her husband's repeated denials, even in the face of a pile of evidence and conclusions from a Senate investigation, it appears all evidence points to Joe Wilson's wife, spy Valerie Plame, as the one who recommended him for the job of going to Niger to discover is Saddam was trying to buy nuke bomb materials.

Why is this important? Because Wilson was opposed to the war in Iraq, opposed to Bush policy, and pointedly and loudly said so.

Consequently, it was of some interest how he got chosen for this sensitive job which people at the time might have thought would be a fulcrum point for a decision about the war.

You wouldn't send a peacenik to see if we should go to war, if we need to go to war, now would you?

That's exactly what happened, and as they say in the news biz: Inquiring minds wanted to know, "How the heck did this happen?"

Well, turns out the wife did it.

She touted husband Joe, her CIA bosses bit, and off Wilson went to completely knock down any notion Saddam wanted Niger's nuke bomb making stuff, which is called yellow cake.

Problem is, the report of the Select Committee on Intelligence says the information showed no such thing. That, in fact, it was still a bit of a mystery and Saddam could well have been trying to buy the nuke bomb material.

So why should Rove get a medal?

Let's just assume that spy Valerie Plame knew her husband's attitudes about the war in Iraq and George W. Bush's policies. Sending him off to Niger could be regarded as an attempt to influence national policies.

Where I come from, we want to know who that is. We do not want secret spymasters pulling the puppet strings in the background. That is something that should be out in the open and the person doing it should own up to it.

Rove should get a medal if he did what he says he didn't.

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#384854 - 07/13/05 04:35 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

What is your response to my above post if he had did it? Are you going to stand by your man or are you going to be an American and stand up for our country?




I assume this question should be worded, "If Karl Rove was trying to punish someone who disagreed with the administation by revealing a family member's secret identity, should he be fired?"

Yes, and prosecuted.

But that is not what is happening here. Think about it - if I wrote some article about a foreign policy issue, would it make sense to try reveal secret information which would indicate that I have more reason to have a grasp of the situation than people would otherwise expect?

The misinformation that Rove was trying to correct in his discussion with Cooper (misinformation that originated with Joe Wilson) was that Vice-President Cheney had specifically chosen him for that mission. The impression that creates is, Cheney's own hand-picked man gave him results he didn't like, but Cheney ignored him. When actually, Wilson was selected by someone at the CIA on the recommendation of his wife. Rove was cautioning Time against following the Wilson-created storyline too far.

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#384855 - 07/13/05 04:36 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

1. If you listen to the President's exact quote, it wasn't that he would fire the person responsible for the leak, he said it would be "dealt with."




Not according to the CNN story where it clearly states that Bush said he would FIRE anyone found to have leaked Plame's name.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/13/cia.leaks.ap/index.html

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#384856 - 07/13/05 04:39 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
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Mark, conservative anon and Jokerman,

You are hypocrits, plain and simple. Are you telling me that if this was a democratic adviser to a democratic president that your position would be the same!? If you say yes, I say horse hockey. If you're going to tout positions and pontificate, be ready to do it both ways. If not, your words mean absolutely NOTHING.

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#384857 - 07/13/05 04:40 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Not according to the CNN story where it clearly states that Bush said he would FIRE anyone found to have leaked Plame's name.




And did Rove leak her name?

But that's not the real issue (or it shouldn't be). The real issue should be intent.

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#384858 - 07/13/05 04:42 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

In February 2002, Ambassador Joseph Wilson traveled to Niger, Africa to investigate whether or not that country had sold uranium to Saddam Hussein. In January 2003, President Bush stated that the British government believed Saddam had sought to buy uranium from Africa. Note the word sought. It is very important.

In July 2003, a few months later, Wilson the ambassador wrote an op-ed piece in the New York Times, saying he could not verify Saddam had bought uranium from Niger. Note the word bought.

That column apparently angered the Bush administration. A short time later, a few journalists were tipped off that Wilson's wife, a CIA officer in Virginia, may have had an ax to grind against the president. Suspicion fell on Karl Rove as the one who exposed Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, to the journalist. Columnist Robert Novak first printed Plame's name.

Rove then told CNN that he didn't know Wilson's wife's name and he didn't leak her name. It's against the law to expose a CIA operative working abroad, which apparently Plame had done.

In December 2003, the Bush administration appointed Patrick Fitzgerald, a special counsel, to investigate whether a crime had been committed in this case. Fitzgerald subsequently pressured journalist Matthew Cooper of "TIME" magazine and Judith Miller of the New York Times to tell him who exposed Ms. Plame, if anyone.

Ms. Miller was ordered to prison because she wouldn't give up her sources. Cooper turned over his notes to Fitzgerald. And those indicate a conversation with Karl Rove about the matter. So that's where we are today.

Now the White House says it won't answer any questions because of the pending investigation. The press is hot to know what happened. And the partisans are running wild. Already Howard Dean and John Kerry have convicted Rove. Isn't it interesting how the great liberal tradition of innocent and proven guilty is consistently ignored by some on the left?

"Talking Points" simply doesn't know what happened. It's impossible to ascertain that with the information available. Obviously, if Karl Rove broke the law, or even violated the ethics of this very powerful position as deputy chief of staff to the president, he has to resign. Rove should also clear the air as soon as possible. He can say anything he wants while Fitzgerald's investigating.

"Talking Points" wants honest government, no matter who's in power. That was our position while Bill Clinton was president. That is our position now. Mr. Rove should step up soon. And that's "The Memo."

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#384859 - 07/13/05 04:44 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Mark, conservative anon and Jokerman,

You are hypocrits, plain and simple. Are you telling me that if this was a democratic adviser to a democratic president that your position would be the same!? If you say yes, I say horse hockey. If you're going to tout positions and pontificate, be ready to do it both ways. If not, your words mean absolutely NOTHING.




Conservative anon did not say Rove should not be fired, I just posted an article from John Gibson saying he probably should be fired, but then given a medal. I just posted a Bill O'Reilly article. Give it a read. He also thinks that if Rove outed her, he should be fired, and not given a medal.

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#384860 - 07/13/05 04:44 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

You are hypocrits, plain and simple. Are you telling me that if this was a democratic adviser to a democratic president that your position would be the same!?




If the facts of the situation were the same, yes.

By the way, John Kerry revealed the name of an intelligence agent multiple times during Senate hearings this year. Do you want him prosecuted? (I do not.)

I have given you the specific criteria under which Rove should not only be fired, but prosecuted. It is entirely possible that the investigation will reveal that those criteria have been met. At the current time, they have not. But I would use those same criteria whether we were discussing a Democratic or Republican White House. And shame on you for impugning my intergrity by suggesting otherwise.

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#384861 - 07/13/05 04:46 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

If not, your words mean absolutely NOTHING.




BTW, my words in the Watercooler often do mean nothing. I will often post things just to stir up discussion. That is why I posted John Gibson's "give him a medal" article.

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#384862 - 07/13/05 04:49 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

And did Rove leak her name?

But that's not the real issue (or it shouldn't be). The real issue should be intent.




You go ahead and "split hairs" on this one, Jokerman. Rove is dirty on this one and you and everyone else knows it. Now, it's time for Bush to stand up and do the right thing. Rove finally let his ego get in the way. And, at a minimun, it should cost him his job. His reputation is already shot to hell.

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#384863 - 07/13/05 04:49 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Exactly fellow anon. This whole "you ain't wid us u agenst us" mentality of the neocons has got to stop. It doesn't do anything but fire people up and make them take sides. If they were as American as they profess to be they would try to search out the best interests of our country. Part of this is telling on your friends when you mess up and part of it is realizing that ideas need to be approached from multiple angles so that you can truly disect a problem.
And that is such a stupid picture too Jokerman; is this the lens you look at the world through too? I am the hateful little liberal you like to talk about. Even though all 3 of those adjectives is incorrect. I am one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I can't stand people that try to bully their way through arguments and points. Are you ashamed of your education? Did you have to try really hard in school?

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#384864 - 07/13/05 05:10 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Quote:

And did Rove leak her name?

But that's not the real issue (or it shouldn't be). The real issue should be intent.




You go ahead and "split hairs" on this one, Jokerman. Rove is dirty on this one and you and everyone else knows it. Now, it's time for Bush to stand up and do the right thing. Rove finally let his ego get in the way. And, at a minimun, it should cost him his job. His reputation is already shot to hell.




Stay off the dem underground long enough to read what I wrote. I specifically avoided splitting hairs. If he is dirty on this, I would agree that he should be fired. But there is no evidence of Rove having done anything unethical (edited to add: much less, illegal). There is evidence that Wilson has acted unethically. But, I know, that's quite inconvenient for you Bush-haters.

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#384865 - 07/13/05 05:13 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

mentality of the neocons




The anti-Semitic postings continue...

Quote:

And that is such a stupid picture too Jokerman; is this the lens you look at the world through too?...I can't stand people that try to bully their way through arguments and points. Are you ashamed of your education? Did you have to try really hard in school?




I'm just going to allow the irony of all that to speak for itself.

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#384866 - 07/13/05 05:20 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
RandomName Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,373
Austin, TX
From what I've read, the assertions by the president (reiterated a year ago) were that anyone identified as leaking Plame's identity would be fired. I have not seen anything to indicate that this was a conditional promise where the sacking would NOT take place if the outing was only done because Wilson said something false or because the leaker was trying to clarify some points. Also, I believe that McClellan has in the past categorically stated that Rove was not involved in any of this.

I hope that Rove does not fall back on some fine Clintonian "it all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" distinctions. I've read that technically, he didn't release her identity by name--he just referred to her as "Wilson's wife".

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#384867 - 07/13/05 05:28 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

From what I've read, the assertions by the president (reiterated a year ago) were that anyone identified as leaking Plame's identity would be fired.




Bush's words: "And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of."

There is nothing in there that says "if a member of my administration has provided corrections to misinformation, I am going to fire them even if their intentions were good." He's saying, I want to know what information was provided, and if it was illegal, we'll deal with it accordingly.

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