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#384943 - 07/14/05 07:00 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Thank you Jokerman, archenemies as we may be, I am not a bad guy.
Personally I would want to see it because he is the font of, in my view, a wrong ideology. But it is just that, if he is without fault, I want the press to eat their words as well. As I have said I don't like the media in general hence the Yahoo dependence (partially attributed to an addiction to fantasy sports). As a lawyer, I truly believe in our system and the media should not me a cog in it. Faith, as some might say, the same as you may have in your religion. I may disagree with people but I am a really caring person who on a non professioanl level will empathize wherever I believe there is injustice.

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#384944 - 07/14/05 07:01 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

But right now, honestly, I do not see ANY evidence that he did anything unethical.




So, even though it has been admitted that he spoke to a reporter and indirectly Valerie Plame was mentioned (Morris' wife), you don't see ANY ethical problems with that!? What a hypocrite! If he was a democrat, you'd be the one tying the noose.

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#384945 - 07/14/05 07:23 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

I do agree with the political implications of the above poster regarding the tying of the noose but I am unsure of the connections or how true or contrived they may be.

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#384946 - 07/14/05 07:29 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Quote:

But right now, honestly, I do not see ANY evidence that he did anything unethical.




So, even though it has been admitted that he spoke to a reporter and indirectly Valerie Plame was mentioned (Morris' wife), you don't see ANY ethical problems with that!? What a hypocrite! If he was a democrat, you'd be the one tying the noose.




Who is Morris?

I see ethical problems with what Wilson (apparently aka "Morris" - did you blow his cover? ) did. I see what we know so far about what Rove did to have been an attempt to correct misinformation that Wilson was putting out. Wilson has been shown to have lied on several occassions.

And, again, stop maligning my integrity. I have given specific reasons why I think what we know Rove to have done is ethical. If you have any logical argument to counter that, let's hear it. Otherwise, just stop.

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#384947 - 07/14/05 07:45 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Thank you Jokerman, archenemies as we may be, I am not a bad guy.




I do not consider myself anyone's archenemy. We may disagree, by I do not consider you my enemy.

Quote:

Personally I would want to see it because he is the front of, in my view, a wrong ideology.




This is the politics of personal destruction. "He's been a key player in the last three elections, so let's hope we can find some dirt on him, since we can't beat him at the ballot box."

Quote:

As a lawyer




Oh boy...you shouldn't have given me that gift.

Quote:

I truly believe in our system and the media should not me a cog in it.




I disagree with you here - I think the media has an important role to play in a free society. I think, however, that the dominant media has abdicated that role, and become a subsidiary of the liberal political establishment.

Quote:

I may disagree with people but I am a really caring person who on a non professioanl level will empathize wherever I believe there is injustice.




What do you do on a professional level? **Insert lawyer joke here**

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#384948 - 07/14/05 07:58 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Funny. I can see your points. I only concur in your view of the media. While they are a vital part of a free and democratic society, the have become just as capatalistic as any other business in their pursuit of angles and such to sell themselves than as the observers and informers of past eras (even recent ones). As such they might be closer to the greedy right wing but I am only concluding with this as a jab and I say it tongue in cheek because greed is political boundary-free.

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#384949 - 07/14/05 08:12 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

I only concur in your view of the media.




Concur = dissent?

Lawyer, eh?

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#384950 - 07/14/05 08:52 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

No it doesn't. What is it that is tripping you up here J?
(concur in the sense I used it means I agree with the result but not the logic behind it) (_jack_)

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#384951 - 07/14/05 08:55 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
rainman Offline
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Posts: 3,237
Jokerman, I'm curious why you think Rove's intent makes a difference. I can see how it make a difference as to what kind of person you think he is, but as to whether he broke the law against "outing" an agent, I don't see it as relevant. Either he knowingly disclosed information that he was prohibited from disclosing or he didn't. Why he did or didn't doesn't make any difference.

As to whether he should be fired, I can see how it would factor in, but I wouldn't hinge the decision solely on intent. If his judgment were so bad that he revealed information the revelation of which could hurt the country (or damage the administration), then perhaps he should be fired for the bad judgment.

(I'm not advocating that he should be fired; I haven't made up my mind on that issue. I'm just curious about why you place such an emphasis on his intent.)
_________________________
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#384952 - 07/14/05 09:22 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

No it doesn't. What is it that is tripping you up here J?
(concur in the sense I used it means I agree with the result but not the logic behind it) (_jack_)




Ah, the "only" is in the sense that you can only concur, not in the sense that this was the only issue of those named with which you could concur. Gotcha.

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#384953 - 07/14/05 09:38 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Jokerman, I'm curious why you think Rove's intent makes a difference. I can see how it make a difference as to what kind of person you think he is, but as to whether he broke the law against "outing" an agent, I don't see it as relevant. Either he knowingly disclosed information that he was prohibited from disclosing or he didn't. Why he did or didn't doesn't make any difference.

As to whether he should be fired, I can see how it would factor in, but I wouldn't hinge the decision solely on intent. If his judgment were so bad that he revealed information the revelation of which could hurt the country (or damage the administration), then perhaps he should be fired for the bad judgment.

(I'm not advocating that he should be fired; I haven't made up my mind on that issue. I'm just curious about why you place such an emphasis on his intent.)




You're probably right as it regards the statute - motive likely is not a factor in determining whether or not he committed a crime. BUT, if we can learn the motive, that will likely tell us about other things that do factor in meeting the legal test of whether a crime occurred.

For example, I believe the statute requires that an individual knowingly expose a covert agent. If his intent was to punish, then he would have been knowingly exposing a covert agent. If he was just mentioning it as a way of explaining to an inquiring reporter how Mr. Wilson got his assignment, then he may very well have had no idea that she was a covert agent (I don't think there's anything from the Cooper information that we have learned that indicates Rove knew she was a covert agent).

Also, you mention that you can see using his intent in your decision as to whether or not he should be fired. Well, this thread is titled "Fire Karl Rove" not "Indict Karl Rove" - so I think, as you do, that his intent is a relevant factor. As to his judgement, I just don't buy the argument that this woman's anonymity was in any way crucial to the nation's security. An argument I heard was, if your wife was a super secret CIA agent specializing in counter-intelligence, would you accept an assignment (much less write an op-ed in the NYT about it) working in that same field, when it is certain to draw attention to you personally?

Several posters have provided different legal defenses - and there are a number of them (did she meet the definition of a "covert agent"; did Rove even obtain the information from a classified source; did Rove even identify her as defined under the statute?) I am less interested in those because (a) I think that is less important than knowing whether or not he acted ethically, and (b) I think that is more of a technical argument (hair-splitting, if you will) than I care to get involved in.

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#384954 - 07/14/05 10:24 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Update from John Gibson of FOX:

Boy, a few of you really got mad at me! Well, more than a few.

Tuesday, I said Karl Rove should get a medal. Rove was, after all, trying to explain how former Ambassador Joe Wilson was writing in a New York Times editorial that he had personally discovered Saddam wasn't trying to buy nuke bomb stuff and how dare President Bush say he did.

Turns out Wilson was against any war against Saddam and his CIA agent wife put him up for the job of going to check out what she called "this crazy report floating around" that Saddam wanted a nuke bomb.

Why would Saddam want that? Wilson's wife evidently thought someone better go hose that story down.

By the way, The Wall Street Journal said Wednesday that Rove was a "whistleblower." So they agree with me.

And here's what I got from the horrified left:

Peter Coleman wrote, "Mr. Gibson, your remarks are as retarded as your hair cut."

Dude, that hurts.

Someone who wouldn't send a name wrote this from the receptionist's computer at the San Francisco unified school district: "Karl should get something for what he did. Not an award but an orange suit with numbers on the back."

Ben Senter was so horrified at my opinion he revealed himself as an authentic news viewer: "'The Daily Show' is the only true and fair news broadcast out there."

I wish I could do that arched eyebrow thing.

Katy Jennings wrote, "You are so sick."

Jim McDonald was sputtering he was so mad: "You are a flaming a------ and obviously know no shame. You are disgusting!"

Galin MacMahon wanted me locked up! "John Gibson should be locked up in a federal pen under treason charges."

Doug Mizell in Costa Rica appears to have anger issues: "You are a pinhead!"

Then something came in Chinese. I can't tell exactly what it said, but I tend to think it was along the lines of the others.

These are people who watch "The Daily Show" or listen to Janeane Garofalo and then come running to the Web site to see if it's true.

It's true, it's true. I tell the truth on My Word.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

That's My Word.

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#384955 - 07/15/05 01:15 AM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Fraudman CFCI Offline
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I believe if you read the statement that President Bush said if there was a violation of law that he would fire the person responsible.

There is a big difference!

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#384956 - 07/15/05 02:58 AM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

I believe if you read the statement that President Bush said if there was a violation of law that he would fire the person responsible.

There is a big difference!




No, There was nothing about a "violation of law". The following is from Bush's June 10, 2004 press conference:

"QUESTION: Given -- given recent developments in the CIA leak case, particularly Vice President Cheney's discussions with the investigators, do you still stand by what you said several months ago, a suggestion that it might be difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent's name?

THE PRESIDENT: That's up to --

QUESTION: And, and, do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. And that's up to the U.S. Attorney to find the facts."

The text is at: http://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/rm/33463.htm

And on September 30, 2003 the following was said:

"Q Yesterday we were told that Karl Rove had no role in it --

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

Q -- have you talked to Karl and do you have confidence in him --

THE PRESIDENT: Listen, I know of nobody -- I don't know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action ."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030930-9.html

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#384957 - 07/15/05 04:51 AM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

No, There was nothing about a "violation of law". The following is from Bush's June 10, 2004 press conference:

...
it might be difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent's name...And, and, do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. And that's up to the U.S. Attorney to find the facts."





So when had the President made this previous pledge referred to by the reporter to fire anyone found to have leaked the name?

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#384958 - 07/15/05 05:16 AM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
A couple of things I found interesting while watching this evening's tivo'd news/chat shows and reading some stories on the internet.

On Hardball, watching John Roberts (who I think has really been kind of a jerk during this whole thing, but credit where due, asked some fair questions during an interview with a fellow described as a first-amendment attorney and Matt Cooper's attorney), he asked a very good question. Basically (sorry, transcript not available yet), if Matt Cooper received this from Karl Rove - this information that "apparently Wilson's wife works for the CIA and she authorized the trip" - on double super secret background (and, for those who don't know, that means, not only without attribution, but also, do not print it, period - it is only to provide context to the discussion; here's a googled explanation), how could he possibly have been shopping the information in a way to harm Wilson's wife? Anybody who thinks that Rove should be fired, I'd like an answer to this, please.

Also, on CNN, Joe Wilson himself is talking to Wolf Blitzer, and says:

Quote:

BLITZER: But the other argument that's been made against you is that you've sought to capitalize on this extravaganza, having that photo shoot with your wife, who was a clandestine officer of the CIA, and that you've tried to enrich yourself writing this book and all of that. What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you?
.
WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.





Wilson wrote a book (don't recall the name), in which he says that he and the Mrs. had both been in the US for more than five years. Everything I see says that the law is not intended to protect anyone other than clandestine agents in the field (or those that have been there in the last five years) - so that seems to pretty much settle the legal question. (The law was not meant to protect people who drive to work at Langley.)

But as I have been saying, the more interesting question is the ethical question. And if nothing Karl Rove did could have endangered a clandestine agent (by the way, the CIA wouldn't let someone whose recent work could be compromised if their identify was blown drive to work at Langley), well, that pretty much settles that question, too.

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#384959 - 07/15/05 06:34 AM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Heeee-larious

(Media begins to back away from Rove-as-leaker storyline.)

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#384960 - 07/15/05 06:50 AM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Quote:

Anyone want to take bets on Joe Wilson?




So, you're claiming that her husband ratted her out!?




Oh, sorry, I had not noticed this post. Yes, I think it's possible that Wilson "outed" her - not to harm her (I don't think that it was possible to harm her by identifying her as CIA employee), but to burnish his credentials. Just a theory. Makes more sense than suggesting that Rove was trying to out her by talking on "double super secret background" to a journalist who had called him.

Scenario: Wilson is talking with Miller (of the NYT, the paper that ran his op-ed piece that started all this, and talks up his knowledge of WMD programs by mentioning that his wife works for the CIA on WMD issues. Perfectly logical statement to make, and not in any way nefarious.

Then, the Novak story is ran. And, if you recall, it sat there for some time before anybody thought to make political hay out of the fact that a CIA employee had been named. But then the firestorm started, and there was this rumor that Rove was the source, and Wilson, who was already peeved at the administration, latches onto it, unaware that Novak originally learned of the CIA connection through Miller. Novak then called a source at the CIA to confirm, they did, and he then called Rove.

It may, however, be more likely that Miller's source and Novak's primary source are the same person, perhaps someone inside the CIA.

Quote:

You are one delusional #$%, Jokerman.




Other than my belief that I am, in fact, Bob Dylan, no, I am not.

The delusional person in this story is the one who fantasized about Karl Rove being frog-marched out of the White House in handcuffs.

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#384961 - 07/15/05 07:16 AM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

I think everyone here needs to chill out. I doubt anyone on BOL knows who it is. It maybe Karl Rove or it may not. If it is not him, even though I would like him to go away, then I wouldn't want an innocent man to take the blame because of politics. If it is him then the Bush administration will find someway to either push this thing out of the lime light or find a way to make Rove a patriot. Rupublicans are really good at framing stuff just right, something the Dem's need to learn how to do.

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#384962 - 07/15/05 01:47 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Anon, I don't think there's any question that Karl Rove talked to a reporter and told him that Plame worked for the CIA. The questions are, did Rove know that she was (and, indeed, was she) clandestine? How did he know this (from gossip, another reporter, or through classified information)? And was his intent to blow her cover, or to provide context to a reporter writing about Wilson's criticism that he had been sent by Cheney and then ignored?

Those are the things we don't know.

-Jokerman

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#384963 - 07/15/05 03:39 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Here is a very interesting article in National Review this morning, also speculating (pretty convincingly) that Wilson is the one who blew his wife's cover. But to a different reporter and for a different reason than I had speculated above. Take if for nothing more than speculation, if you are still interested in this story. And, really, I can't imagine how normal people are anything other than bored to tears by this story.

-Jokerman

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#384964 - 07/15/05 04:26 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Fraudman CFCI Offline
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Posts: 3,189
Land of Steady Habits
Isn't leaking classified information a violation of the law? It certainly was explained to me that way when I had access.

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#384965 - 07/15/05 04:28 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Retired DQ Offline
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,766
Turnpike Exit 10
Quote:

Isn't leaking classified information a violation of the law? It certainly was explained to me that way when I had access.




Look who is trying to hang Rove now...
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

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#384966 - 07/15/05 04:42 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Isn't leaking classified information a violation of the law? It certainly was explained to me that way when I had access.




I assume that there are legal restrictions on disclosing classified information. But that may depend on the specific information that is disclosed, where it was obtained from (i.e., repeating a rumor doesn't seem like it would fit the bill), and what the intent was.

-Jokerman

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#384967 - 07/15/05 05:47 PM Re: Fire Karl Rove as You Promised
Anonymous
Unregistered

I'm getting dizzy from all the spinning!

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