Your rights are disappearing quickly. "Language tucked inside the Homeland Security bill will allow the federal government to track the e-mail, Internet use, travel, credit-card purchases, phone and bank records of foreigners and U.S. citizens in its hunt for terrorists."

From what I understand warrantless searches are possible with this. While I am as patriotic as the next person, consider the changes we have seen since 9-11. The Control List was one thing, the FinCEN 314(a) seems to be less strict to get on and now we'll all be subject to invasions of privacy. While I support the efforts, unchecked we are ripe for abuse.

Thanks for the link. I appreciate your thougths and am also concerned about some of the right that we may lose during as a direct result of 9/11.

Perhaps the debate should not be framed as a trade off between liberty (privacy) and security. I believe that the proper function of government is as a cooperative means of self-defense. In order for the government to provide protection against criminals, terrorists, foreign invaders etc, it is necessary to allow the government certain latitude in the use of coercive force. To analyze the situation appropriately you must look at the risk posed by those who are willing to use aggression to your detriment and add to that the real threat to your liberty posed by the excessive use of government coercion. A proper balance of liberty and security minimizes the combined risk to you. Too much or too little government power are both ways to maximize the threat to your liberty. A police state allows little or no liberty but neither does anarchy. With the right balance you have a government capable of protecting you while having minimal impact on your liberty. The proper balance of liberty and security changes as the threats posed by foreign aggressors and terrorist increase. Right now terrorists are a real threat and it is necessary for government to adjust accordingly.

Things will get much worse before they get better, privacy wise.

I agree which is why a system of checks and balance is necessary. If the government wants info, it should be authorized through proper channels. The opportunity for abuse is to great.

I would have to agree Andy. I'm the Security Specialist here and my boss said in regards to internet searches "just don't use 'terrorist' or 'terrorism' or I'll (meaning her)be getting a call" The idea that if you're using these word you need to be investigated is rediculous. <ok so I can't spell> But I understand her not wanting to get that kind of call.

Both you and Andy seem a little paranoid to me. Please keep in mind:

In reply to:

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WE ARE AT WAR

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We want our shores, and our people, safe and secure. This is where "they" are coming to fight us through their surrogates, and so "Homeland Security" is more important to us than at any time in our nation's past, because we ARE a free nation and it is relatively easy for evildoers to operate inside our borders.

If nothing else, 9/11 showed that, in spades.

What freedoms are we losing that a nation at war--even the U.S. in its wartime past--shouldn't expect to have to "lose"?

Most of the negative Homeland Security stuff people allege are ONLY allegations. They give no basis for their conclusions, just a lot of fear-mongering.

Tell your boss to next time, try some decaf...

I am sorry to disagree, but there is a balance between liberty and security. Totaliatrian police states have historically had very low crime rates. While low crime rates are enticing, in my opinion, the trade off in the loss of freedom is not worth it.

We must balance the needs of the individual against the very real needs of the government to secure those individuals.

I am not sure a "Big Brother" database containing this much information will really enhance security, but it will further engrandize the ever-increasing power of the Federal security infrastructure.

Actually, I think there is a large difference between "homeland security" and giving the government the power to search your home, mail, email, and so on. If you’re a citizen there are some basic right that should be protected. The real reason we have these issues is because the democrats CUT our military, which in turn made us a target. Everyone is trying to be so patriotic and telling everyone to respect and honor our vets well at the same time voting for someone who downsized our military which is our greatest defense. Before Clinton's administration everyone was too afraid to mess with the US, now it's open season.

End RANT!

My point is letting the government invade the privacy of its own citizen is not going to solve our crisis. Stricter border control and increase military might.

Anon - I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Grist - I forgot to mention, my boss was actually refering to other peoples paranoia not her own.

Sometimes I think the American public is too soft, we need to get smacked around a bit before we realize that the rest of the world doesn't have the same ideals about freedom and liberty that we do, and allow/pressure the government to start doing a better job of protecting those values, which would include limiting those freedoms for periods of time.

The US would never become a dictatorship or "Big Brother" there is too many provisions built in our government to prevent it. So assuming that the temporarily monitoring of email or whatever would precipitate a totalitarian government is ridiculous.

oh course this is all my own very bias opinion.

I never said it would precipitate a totalitarian government but I don't want to live under marshall law either.

In reply to:

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The US would never become a dictatorship or "Big Brother" there is too many provisions built in our government to prevent it.

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Those provisions are breaking down. We all know that banking info is now readily available to the government. Much more so that a few years ago.

I used to be in the camp that said let them look, only those doing something wrong have to worry. But define "wrong". Your definition and mine, and that of some "authorized abuser" who is empowered to look at my e-mail and listen to my calls will differ. My phone calls are private. I know e-mail isn't. But I don't want everything I do to be subject to review because some "authorized abuser" saw that I disagreed with an official policy. The chance of this happening is increasing.

Right on Andy! Being a former Gov't worker, ie bank examiner, I have seen way too many instances of abuse. While being a patriot and supporting our war on terror, this goes way beyond the pale. It will create an enormous opportunity for abuse by the government on its own citizens. I can imagine attorneys everywhere licking their chops at getting info from this source also. Grist - we are not paranoid!!

Again I agree with Andy. The reason the US has never become a dictatorship or what have you is because every time someone suggested giving the government the powers we're talking about, it got voted down. If we change that now it won't make our government a dictator, but it will set a precedence for the next time something happens and eventually all the provision that prevent a dictator will be gone.

I think you have to remember that some of these terrorists have been in the country for years, get driver's licenses, etc. These terrorist cells plan things in terms of years and decades - not days or weeks. Some of these terrorists could be citizens of this country, and some of our own citizens will do anything for $$$. Read some Tom Clancy novels.

I don't want Big Brother either but if the govt wants to know where I order my vitamins and read my chatty e-mails to my brother then they are free to do so. Frankly, I think they will concentrate their time on the Big Fish and leave us Little Fry alone;I have nothing to hide. We need to let our congressmen know that controls need to be in place so we don't lose the freedoms we have earned over the last few hundred years. But we also need protection from terrorists and the systems in place to detect and prevent another 9/11 from happening.

Very interesting rant, but let's see how you feel, especially after the next series of attacks. Privacy will be a moot point.

Your paranoia about losing "rights" does not trump catching maniacal mass murderers determined to kill every last one of us.

It will be hard for you to complain about losing your rights when you and your family are crunchy piles of organic matter.

Show of hands...how many of us KNEW that after the Know Your Customer proposal went down in flames, that the concept would be back soon to haunt us. Yes - we got GLBA "so-called" privacy which basically protects consumers from receiving sales pitches.

Your tax dollars at work.

So, has the Know Your Customer policy requirements actually been eliminated or is GLBA simply piled on top of it? I continue to maintain a KYC and a separate GLBA/Privacy policy has been developed. Did I miss something on KYC?

A big Kray computer system has been listenig to internatinal phone calls ( and probably e-mail) for years. There is a long list of words phases numbers etc it listens for and when it hears one it tells an analyist.

The new bill does the same except its now legal to do it domestically. There has been no abuse of normal Americans with the system in place and no reason to expect Big Brother to be intruding on the normal american population.

This is a War and in War the norm is not possible if you expect to win it. War has been something some else went and took care of while we went merrily on our way. Now its come home and to Win it all citizens are being asked to have participate. Probably few of you are old enough to remember WWII. There were a number restrictions placed on every day americans here in the US, and like them or not, all americans accepted the restrictions in the effort to win. What is being put into effect isn't even close to waht we had in WWII. When WII was over the restrictions went away.

It does become relevant that we elect people to office that do not have the egos,lack of morals and integrity problems we have encountered. Those folks in office have, and will abuse our privacy, and bit by bite with a smile on their face,in a slow and unnoticed manner will create the Big B.

When we win this war, we have to be sure what was put in place to win goes away also.

Well, I guess we don't need to worry about rights so long as we stop terrorists. So if the government wanted all citizens to apply to move from state to state, we would be ok with that?
Or, request permission to change jobs, so they also track it?
Or limit certain groups from owning property, carrying money because those groups are know terrorists.

Starts to sound like Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia to me.

Remember the Inter-war German constitutiion was full of civil liberty guarantess, which were quickly wiped out after the 1932 election. It can happen if we allow it to.

I don't see what the problem is...

That's just the problem. I understand that during a war everyone must make sacrifices, but with this war there is no clear end. Terrorism is an on going problem so anything put in place now will probably stay in place.

As for our listen Kray, there's a HUGE difference between international and domestic.

As for WWII, my father-in-law faught in it as well as all the wars since. I might not remember it, but I've heard enough to have an idea.

[Rant warning ommitted due to nature of the thread]

Privacy is not a right; it's a luxury. There are no references to it in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. The Supreme Court has never been able to bring itself to guarantee it except in the human reproductive process. Privacy has been bestowed on us by an open and somewhat tolerant society. So, it does not take much government action to remove it. 9/11 put us in the mode of simply watching it happen.

As Andy notes, the 314(a) searches are a case in point. For example, what would we have required before turning over customer information to federal law enforcement personnel before 9/11? A summons; a subpoena or search warrant signed by a judge; or a written certification from the Secret Service acting in its protective capacity.

Now, all it takes an unencrypted e-mail from someone who doesn't even sign it. The USA PATRIOT Act merged the distinction between money laundering and terrorist activity so fully that it legitimized a fishing expedition for anyone being investigated for any predicate crime. The safeguard is that one law enforcement agency certifies to another that the query is legitimate - one heck of an internal control.

CIP is no better. I've taken some teasing for the political content of my comment letter on CIP, but the following excerpt was heartfelt:

"It is worth noting that the USA PATRIOT Act was prompted by the actions of foreign, not domestic terrorists. Nevertheless, this proposal does nothing to require or facilitate better identification of nonresident aliens - BSA regulations already require banks to obtain evidence of foreign citizenship and record the information. It is Kafkaesque that our country's attempt to keep international terrorists out of the banking system is entirely focused on getting better identification from U.S. citizens."

If what the government wants the banking industry to do combats terrorism, I'm in favor of it, even if it costs me personally. However, my perspective is that their time would be better spent working on our immigration policies...they do this instead because it's easier.

I'm sure it is Ch. 2 for you, Joe.

Don, this war won't end.

Europe has lived with these threats since WW II and the Middle East lives with it as well. The surprise is that it took this long to reach us.

Like temporary taxes, I do not believe that once these powers are received they will be relinquished without a major number of cases clearly showing an abuse. I liken it to IRS reform. There is a lot of talk every few years, 60 Minutes does a story and Congress holds a hearing. But what really changes?

My fear is the abuse that will undoubtedly be allowed. Surely they could accomplish the same things with checks and balances in place.

I have two best friends. One works for Homeland Security and the other works for No Such Agency.
There is a serious war coming our way.

Perhaps we can buy you a new phrase-book, so you don't have to keep dragging out the same tired old cliche's.

Name one "liberty" that you have lost or that you are about to lose?