Thread Options 
|
#449887 - 10/31/05 01:48 PM
Black Listing Employees
|
10K Club
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 27,752
On the Net
|
I'm interested in thoughts on this Blog entry. While I know the business reasons not to do it, I think it is time. "How" they'll work within laws and litigation as well as who will have access may be the keys. But I'd think this would be tricky, or am I overly cautious?
_________________________
AndyZ CRCM
My opinions are not necessarily my employers.
R+R-R=R+R
Rules and Regs minus Relationships equals Resentment and Rebellion. John Maxwell
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449888 - 10/31/05 02:29 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,858
Pulling people out of the ditc...
|
Andy, I agree that we should notify potential employers when they call for a reference, much as school districts should when a teacher was fired for sexual improprieties with students. Sadly, the attorneys would advise against this as they are worried about the potential for a lawsuit. I don't know if I'm comfortable with a database listing everyone (although the regulators all have databases of officers of banks that have been banned from banking), but if a bank called asking for a reference, stating termination for cause should not be an issue.
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449889 - 10/31/05 02:36 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I'm in support of it as well.
I've had a similar concept running around my head for several years, although it would not be limited to financial institutions. I'd like to see something where we as employers would have access to a employment check that would be handled and regulated much in the same way as a credit check. When a report was pulled, it would list all reported employers, dates of service, and a term code - voluntary, involuntary, gross misconduct, etc. Employees would have to agree to allow their information to be released as a condition of employment...there would have to be a system to dispute data....there would have to be a way to establish self-employment....there are so many facets that would have to be considered and ironed out, but the idea is there.
Aside from assisting in hiring decisions, I believe that it would also deter a lot of employees from making rash decisions such as chosing to quit w/o notice, because they'd know that information would be linked to them and future employers would have access to it.
Just a pipe dream of mine.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449890 - 10/31/05 03:07 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,350
The he11 of suburbia
|
Quote:
it would also deter a lot of employees from making rash decisions such as chosing to quit w/o notice...
I think the idea of a database is great, but it should be used for provable issues that brought harm (or could have brought harm) to the bank, its customers, or its employees. In order words, fraud, embezzlement, falsifying documents, harrassment and other code of conduct violations, etc. While the fact that an employee quits w/o notice may be tacky and tee us off as managers, I believe posting such as retaliation would be petty and dilute the value of the database.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449891 - 10/31/05 04:29 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I disagree - I believe that if the system were regulated in the same way that credit checks are, then the onus would be on the employer to report only truthful information. The object is to make everybody - employees and employers - accountable for their actions. Again, there would have to be a dispute resolution process for such a situation where an irresponsible employer used the system inappropriately.
Like I said, A)If it were regulated in a FCRA-similar fashion, it would be a benefit to employers, and employees alike. In fact, employees who have good ratings could use it as a bargaining tool when considering new positions. And, B) It's a pipe dream - not likely to happen anywhere, anytime.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449892 - 10/31/05 05:10 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Power Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,708
Las Vegas Nevada
|
I have seen to many good people abused by by the banking system to believe there would be total honesty in such a system.
Sure embezzlers, fraudsters are easy to list. But some people through no real fault of their own do get run over by some personalities in some banks.
This is an extreme example but I could give many.
Harry had been with the bank 12 years. Harry was classified as a consumer loan officer but in reality Harry was the bank Go For. His pay was not even in a loan officer scale.
Harry's appearance was at best unkempt. He was not good looking and needed his teeth fixed and cleaned badly. He lacked many social graces, but was friendly to all and totally accepted as the Go For.
He was initially employed by the bank by a regional VP who was doing a favor for a family friend. Harry's mother and father basically abandoned him as he was not up to their expectations.
My first day as branch manager I mentioned that the branch was dirty, dark and drab. Harry immediately volunteered to stay after work and do janitorial work, paint, wash windows or what ever was necessary to put the place back in shape.
I brought over an assistant manager with me who accepted the challenges of turning this place around. We sat down with Harry and after a long conversation my AM and I asked if he wanted to be a consumer loan officer or the janitor and gave him the night to think about it. We both thought he had potential and he had been branded unfairly from the start
Next morning Harry had decided he wanted to be a consumer loan officer. So long story short my AM and I started working with Harry. We took him to a clothing store and working with the owner Harry got some tips on how to buy cloths, and some new duds. I took him to my barber, Harry had been cutting his own hair, and yes we took him to a dentist for the first time in his adult life.
The transformation was dramatic. His demeanor was upbeat and he tackled the job with enthusiasm and vigor. He displayed a personality and sense of humor customers loved.
We also found out Harry was one course away from a degree in accounting and was very familiar with main frame programming. I gave Harry the consumer part of the budget I was preparing and instruction s on what I needed done. He came back the next morning with beautiful data. He eventually ran the whole budget through the program and using the last 5 years of historical GL figures came up with the most accurate budget that bank had ever had in its history. Harry was great with numbers.
One day I received a call from the Regional VP. Which opened with "Fire Harry" Why now I asked. we just spent several months making him a productive and loyal employee. The answer was the bank had failed it's equal opportunity examination and was told it had to get everyones pay scale in line. This meant that Harry would go from his current $900.00 a month salary to the bottom of a consumer loan officer scale which back then was around $2,500 a month
and "I'm not paying Harry $2,000.0 a month" was the regional VP's comment.
I was able to talk the RVP out of immediate termination to be based be what ever trumped up charge we wanted to make, and got it delayed for three weeks, at which point Harry had to be gone.
In that three weeks we talked with Harry about finding a job using numbers which for which there was nothing available in the bank.
The shot side is I had a friend working at an S & L who was looking for help in the cashiers dept. They hired Harry and in 4 years Harry was the Cashier for a very successful S & L. One of of the nicest days of my life was seeing Harry's smiling face in picture in an ad the S&L placed in the newspaper.
Yep someone else would have followed orders and fired him. Someone else would have put him on a "Black List"
There are hundreds if not thousands of Harry type stories out there. If there are 1,000 people on the black list and 999 are true bad guys and 1 is a person like Harry there should never be a "Black List" One wrong listing is just one to many
_________________________
Compliance Analysis and Research - Software for your CRA/HMDA analysis needs
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449893 - 10/31/05 06:50 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
I have seen to many good people abused by the banking system to believe there would be total honesty in such a system.
Sure embezzlers, fraudsters are easy to list. But some people through no real fault of their own do get run over by some personalities in some banks.
This is an extreme example but I could give many.
Harry had been with the bank 12 years. Harry was classified as a consumer loan officer but in reality Harry was the bank Go For. His pay was not even in a loan officer scale.
Gary's appearance was at best unkempt. He was not good looking and needed his teeth fixed and cleaned badly. He lacked many social graces, but was friendly to all and totally accepted as the Go For.
He was initially employed by the bank by a regional VP who was doing a favor for a family friend. Gary's mother and father basically abandoned him as he was not up to their expectations.
My first day as branch manager I mentioned that the branch was dirty, dark and drab. Harry immediately volunteered to stay after work and do janitorial work, paint, wash windows or what ever was necessary to put the place back in shape.
I brought over an assistant manager with me who accepted the challenges of turning this place around. We sat down with Harry and after a long conversation my AM and I asked if he wanted to be a consumer loan officer or the janitor and gave him the night to think about it. We both thought he had potential and he had been branded unfairly from the start
Next morning Harry had decided he wanted to be a consumer loan officer. So long story short my AM and I started working with Harry. We took him to a clothing store and working with the owner Harry got some tips on how to buy cloths, and some new duds. I took him to my barber, Harry had been cutting his own hair, and yes we took him to a dentist for the first time in his adult life.
The transformation was dramatic. His demeanor was upbeat and he tackled the job with enthusiasm and vigor. He displayed a personality and sense of humor customers loved.
We also found out Harry was just a few credits away from a BA in accounting and was very familiar with main frame programming. I gave Harry the consumer part of the budget I was preparing and instruction s on what I needed done. He came back the next morning with beautiful data. He eventually ran the whole budget through the program and using the last 5 years of historical GL figures came up with the most accurate budget that bank had ever had in its history. Harry was great with numbers.
One day I received a call from the Regional VP. Which opened with "Fire Harry" Why now I asked. we just spent several months making him a productive and loyal employee. The answer was the bank had failed it's equal opportunity examination and was told it had to get everyone’s pay scale in line. This meant that Harry would go from his current $900.00 a month salary to the bottom of a consumer loan officer scale which back then was around $2,500 a month
and "I'm not paying Harry $2,000.0 a month" was the regional VP's comment.
I was able to talk the RVP out of immediate termination to be based be what ever trumped up charge we wanted to make, and got it delayed for three weeks, at which point Harry had to be gone.
In that three weeks we talked with Harry about finding a job using numbers which for which there was nothing available in the bank.
The shot side is I had a friend working at an S & L who was looking for help in the cashiers dept. They hired Harry and in 4 years Harry was the Cashier for a very successful S & L. One of the nicest days of my life was seeing Harry's smiling face in picture in an ad the S&L placed in the newspaper.
Yep someone else would have followed orders and fired him. Someone else would have put him on a "Black List"
There are hundreds if not thousands of Harry type stories out there. If there are 1,000 people on the black list and 999 are true bad guys and 1 is a person like Harry there should never be a "Black List" One wrong listing is just one to many
Thank you...that is not an uncommon occurrence. There is also the issue of corporate politics when good, productive, HONEST employees are squeezed out by a series of moves and trumped up allegations because they wouldn't "get with the program" which is usually massaging someone's ego so THAT person could get what they wanted from the bank. And unfortunately the people that "got on board" with THAT person didn't realize they would be the first to be squashed or blamed if the hammer came down.
Been there more than once. In the first instance, THAT person was fired from more than one employer since, but made my life a living hell while it was going on. No comment on life at present. Whatever happened to honesty and ethics? Did they go the way of Enron and WorldCom? I keep waiting for someone to do the right thing...in my heart I have to believe there are still people out there that care about doing the right thing...
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449894 - 10/31/05 09:46 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I know of a teller who had a $2,000 shortage. She was fired. About two years later, they found the difference (they weren't looking for it - how they found it is a long story). I was a consultant for the bank during that time and had nothing to do with it, but that's how I am aware of this situation. Would that wrongfully fired teller be on the Employee Blacklist you all are discussing? Who would make the decision to either list or de-list someone?
I see more harm than good coming from such a list. There already is a mechanism for finding out if an employee was fired for fraud, theft, etc., - by verifying references. If there is potential liability for telling another potential employer honestly why someone was terminated, why would there not be potential liability for putting someone on a blacklist?
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449895 - 10/31/05 10:26 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Today, I needed to verify references on a candidate. The former employer is somebody I happen to know and I thought I'd at least get a good word for the candidate from him. Regardless, he chose to only verify dates of employment and position.
Verifying references is more often than not a waste of time. Candidates do not give names of people who are going to say something negative. I've been verifying references for 12 years and I can count on one hand how many former employers have given an honest reference regarding the candidate.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449896 - 10/31/05 11:09 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I agree that verifying references has become a waste of time. However, do you think the same companies that refuse to verify references would be willing to put a person's name on a "blacklist"? Probably only if it could not be attributed to them. Is that what is being proposed for the blacklist?
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449897 - 11/01/05 02:54 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
I agree that verifying references has become a waste of time. However, do you think the same companies that refuse to verify references would be willing to put a person's name on a "blacklist"? Probably only if it could not be attributed to them. Is that what is being proposed for the blacklist?
In the situation I've described (I can't speak for the blogger's idea, of course), there would be no reason for the employer to be fearful of any kind of claim any longer as the employee must agree to release TRUTHFUL information regarding his/her employment, and there would be a mechanism for punishing employers who abused the system and submitted untrue information.
Think about how we pull and report on credit reports today - the FCRA regulates how that information is obtained, verified, distributed and for what purposes it may be used. The same sort of idea could apply in an employment report. Employers would submit specific detailed information that future employers could reconcile against what the candidate tells us in an application/resume. If there is conflicting information, the candidate would have a right to that information and a vehicle to dispute the data. The days of worrying about whether you're going to get sued for sharing truthful information about an employee would be over.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449898 - 11/01/05 05:14 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Power Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,708
Las Vegas Nevada
|
If you could count on the bank being truthful, great. The problem is you can't.
You would have to be blind to see how some people get railroaded out of a bank and what is used to justify their dismissal. Just because of a "personality conflict" or "not a team player" Those two are most often used because an employee refused to do something unethical.
Yes, there are many fine people out their who will do the right thing. There are just as many who will not.
If such as system was put in place an employee should have the right to rebut anything and also have that entered.
What really bothers me is look at what you are calling your list. "Black Listing Employees" That in itself should be very disturbing to you.
_________________________
Compliance Analysis and Research - Software for your CRA/HMDA analysis needs
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449899 - 11/01/05 06:02 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I think you need to re-read this entire post, Don. The title of the thread is "Black Listing Employees", and it is in regard to the original idea set forth in the blog quoted. I have never "named" my concept, and if you'll read through, you will see that in my idea, there would be safeguards in place that would be regulated much in the same way as the FCRA. I've also already stated that in my little dream system, there would be a mechanism in place for people to dispute data.
And again, I wouldn't limit this to F.I.'s only. This would be for all types of employers.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449900 - 11/01/05 06:47 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,858
Pulling people out of the ditc...
|
Sadly, for every safeguard that is in place, there is someone who can get around it...
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449901 - 11/01/05 07:16 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Power Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,708
Las Vegas Nevada
|
HRD - Sorry, I was not directing my remarks to you individually, but can see in my wording that may have been the impression one would get.
No, it was the perverbial "You all" I was addressing.
Anyway IMO what ever you officially call it its going to be the "Black List" in everyones mind.
Right now there is no prohibition on giving out information. What is in place is, if you give out false or incorrect information, you are liable for it. So, everyone is afraid they will be sued, so they have gone overboard and don't give out any.
There is nothing in place that stops people from saying John or Jane Doe was a good employee.
There is nothing in place that stops people from saying Joh or Jane resigned to seek more opportunity elsewhere.
There is nothing in place that stops someone from saying please refer to our police report case # xxx filed on xx/xx/xxx
We don't really need new regulations, or a new list with more rules to follow. All we really need to do remove the fear factor.
That doesn't mean a blanket exemption just tell the truth and if you don't, be liable for it.
_________________________
Compliance Analysis and Research - Software for your CRA/HMDA analysis needs
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449902 - 11/01/05 09:40 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
10K Club
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 83,393
Galveston, TX
|
I would leave the "blacklist" to the regulators - they already have one and it can be accessed by all.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here should not be construed to be those of my employer: PPDocs.com
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449903 - 11/02/05 01:43 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
10K Club
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
|
There's a reason they call it the blacklist...it's assumed to be a secret. It's arbitrary and it would be misused. Generally, all people have to do is imagine themselves being blacklisted without their knowledge and their perception changes.
I accept the fact that the regulators have the power, but I've seen that overused and underused and even my faith in them is limited.
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449904 - 11/02/05 03:44 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
|
The difference between a credit report and an employee black list is that a credit report is objective. You either did or didn't open the account. You either did or didn't make payments on time. It's black and white.
With employees there are all kinds of shades of grey (with the exception of fraud, embezzlement, etc.). I have seen people who weren't "popular" in an organization dismissed because people were looking for reasons to get rid of them and dismissing them for things others in the organization do. I have seen some people treated so poorly they quit (which is what the company wanted) and they don't give notice because they are being treated unfairly. HR issues are too subjective to lump them all into this data base/blacklist that people are talking about. IMHO.
_________________________
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449905 - 11/02/05 04:49 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,858
Pulling people out of the ditc...
|
I believe that the original question was why would we not include a list of people terminated for fraud, etc., not becuase they were unpopular or couldn't do the job. The fact that everyone is now wanting to expand this to include anyone fired for any reason shows why this list would not work.
Again, the regulators already have the list of those who are banned from banking.
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449906 - 11/02/05 10:29 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
100 Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 191
Kentucky
|
Happy, where is that list? I'd like to be able to check people against it before offerring them positions.
_________________________
The above is my opinion, and is frequently valued at USD 2¢ or less.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449907 - 11/03/05 12:34 AM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I believe that the original question was why would we not include a list of people terminated for fraud, etc.,
Actually, I don't believe there wasn't a question at all, just a request for comments. The article linked doesn't talk about "employees terminated for fraud." What it would take to be blacklisted is a lot more vague than that.
Nevertheless, you did prove that it's unlikely people would read the instructions. So, it's probably not a good idea.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449908 - 11/03/05 05:01 AM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Happy, Like Banking Bard, I'd also like to know if I can access such a list. I spent about an hour or two after this guidance on pre-employment background screening was issued by the FDIC http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2005/fil4605a.html ) I couldn't find an easy way to do it. I had to search all of the agencies' web sites individually.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449909 - 11/03/05 01:54 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,858
Pulling people out of the ditc...
|
start here link to ffiec to get tot he FFIEC website,then you would need to search each regulatory agency individually. As enforcement action takes place on an almost daily basis, having a list printed today would not benefit you a week from now. And unless you are involved in the hiring process, it seems that this is more of morbid curiosity than anything else. You can also subscribe to each regulators updates on enforecment actions which would send you the list of any action the regulator took against a bank, person, etc.
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449910 - 11/03/05 07:32 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Happy,
Thank you for the info. It's not morbid curiosity. I'm not involved in hiring, but I provide all compliance info such as FDIC FILs to applicable departments, then I try to help them comply. That's why I was trying to access it. My HR people are not familiar with the regulatory websites and I was trying to help. You can search back for a certain period of time on each web site. Printing info each day or subscribing to the regulators' updates would only help if the person had been barred since you started subscribing, then you'd have to sift through chronologically issued updates to check for a name. It would be easy at first but would become very difficult as updates accumulated.
If anyone has an easier way than visiting each web site individually, I'd like to hear it.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#449911 - 11/08/05 04:09 PM
Re: Black Listing Employees
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
It already exists in certain markets. For example, here in Wilmington De, which is such a small city with a lot of Large banks, "everybody knows somebody" at another bank. I have seen individuals get canned from one of these banks, not always justly, as stated in previous posts, that have been unable to find any kind of job locally, and had to move out of the area just to get work.
I would not be in favor of such a database.
SF
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Thread
Index