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#46180 - 11/29/02 09:06 PM Without Prejudice
vaca Offline
Junior Member
vaca
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 37
We have a customer that has requested we create a new signature card for him that is titled "Without Prejudice." Interestingly enough, this is on an account that we have been working with the State Attorney General's office on information requests. I have checked our State codified laws and cannot find any information on this. I also did a search here on BOL and found no matches. What reference sources would you recommend I consult to research this? Is it something we should consult our attorney on or what course of action should we take? Thanks!

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#46181 - 11/29/02 09:35 PM Re: Without Prejudice
BANNED BY BOL MANAGEMENT Offline
Platinum Poster
BANNED BY BOL MANAGEMENT
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 524
The request doesn't make a lot of sense, in that "Without Prejudice" is normally used in connection with a dispute. Basically, it's "communications between parties in dispute which are part of a genuine attempt to settle the dispute cannot be used in evidence against them as admissions."

Normally, it's incorporated within a letter or stated at the start of a meeting, but why someone would request that it be put of a signature is beyond me. I'd check with your attorney, as there is a possibly that if it were put on a signature card, it may impact the "value" of account information in some way.

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#46182 - 11/30/02 12:30 AM Re: Without Prejudice
complyguy Offline
Gold Star
complyguy
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 494
PA
"Without prejudice" is a term used in sovereign individual circles. It has something to do with their notion that the U.S. is under admiralty law, rather than common law. They believe that the use of the term withdraws them from the reach of admiralty law (and the IRS, in particular). It's been a while since I've read anything about this, so I may not have it exactly right, but this concept dovetails with your customer's request to have the account re-titled.

Following is an excerpt from a "Patriot" website, stating what they believe about this phrase:

The Sufficiency of the Reservation -- Any expression
indicating an intention to reserve rights, is sufficient,
such as "without prejudice". (UCC 1-207.4)


Whenever you sign any legal paper that deals with Federal Reserve
Notes -- in any way, shape or manner -- under your signature
write: Without Prejudice UCC 1-207.2 This reserves your rights.
You can show, at 1-207.4, that you have sufficiently reserved
your rights.

It is very important to understand just what this means.
For example, one man who used this in regard to a traffic ticket
was asked by the judge just what he meant by writing "without
prejudice UCC 1-207" on his statement to the court. He had not
tried to understand the concepts involved. He only wanted to use
it to get out of the ticket. He did not know what it meant.
When the judge asked him what he meant by signing in that way, he
told the judge that he was not prejudiced against anyone ....
The judge knew that the man had no idea what it meant, and he
lost the case. You must know what it means.


Without Prejudice UCC 1-207

When you use "Without Prejudice UCC 1-207" in connection
with your signature, you are saying:


I reserve my right not to be compelled to perform under any
contract or commercial agreement that I did not enter
knowingly, voluntarily, and intentionally. And,
furthermore, I do not accept the liability of the compelled
benefit of any unrevealed contract or commercial agreement.



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#46183 - 12/02/02 12:53 PM Re: Without Prejudice
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
10K Club
Elwood P. Dowd
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
As for adding the term "without prejudice" to the account title, just say "No." Your account titles should reflect your institution's understanding of your state's laws. Adding terms or acronyms at the customer's request when you believe them to be nonsensical puts you in an impossible position. When the customer comes back and says you did not handle it correctly according to his imaginary rule of law, what are you going to say?

True, your refusal might cause the customer to close the account. However, at the end of the day you are likely to realize that was an accomplishment.

I have never found any workable explanation of the term, but have developed an opinion similar to Grist's as to what people think it means. If you and I are having a dispute and I give you a check which you endorse "without prejudice" above your signature, then you are saying your acceptance of the check does not indicate your claim has been satisfied. In effect, you are attempting to preserve your rights to pursue your claim even though you took the check. Obviously, sticking that language in an account title, as if it would apply to every check issued, reduces the concept to the absurd.

However, Complyguy has offered a highly credible explanation for the request. I've been treated to other "legal" explanations offered by "sovereign individuals" and those who have adopted righteous income tax evasion as a hobby. Although this is a new one for me, it fits their "smorgasbord" approach to the law; i.e.. "I'll take a little of this and a little of that, but I'll ignore the rest."

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#46184 - 12/02/02 03:14 PM Re: Without Prejudice
complyguy Offline
Gold Star
complyguy
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 494
PA
A dim recollection just occurred to me - I believe the contractual liability that sovereign individuals wish to evade is the debt obligations that the U.S. government incurs when it issues federal reserve notes. According to the sovereign individuals, the U.S. government debt obligations are binding upon unknowing U.S. citizens. Something like that. Frankly, I can't use up my decreasing brain capacity for this stuff. I need to reserve it for other nonsense issued by entities that have the ability to penalize my employer for failure to comply.

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#46185 - 12/02/02 08:24 PM Re: Without Prejudice
Walleye Woman Offline
Platinum Poster
Walleye Woman
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 832
I'd be very careful about doing business with a customer requesting this. Some years ago we had some customers who did things similar to this. They ended up being arrested for tax evasion and we had to do tons of research. It is much easier to say no to their request and possibly lose the account - which may be a blessing.
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I'd rather be fishing.


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