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#462439 - 11/28/05 07:15 PM What Jokerman read for lunch
Jokerman Offline
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A couple of articles that I thought were really good. The first was from thw WSJ's opinion journal website, about the case that the President needs to make for Iraq.

The second was about the political climate - and the state of political discourse - in America, generally.

Just thought y'all would like to know.

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#462440 - 11/28/05 07:41 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Re: the WSJ article on the speech that the President ought to give on Iraq.

If I agreed that all the statements made were true, then my next question would be: "So why are we still there?"

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#462441 - 11/28/05 07:44 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

"So why are we still there?"




"We know that much remains to be done. Sunni and Shiite leaders must work together more closely....Soon Iraqi forces will be able to maintain order in the few hot spots that still exist in Iraq. We will stay the course until they are ready."

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#462442 - 11/28/05 07:51 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Sound Tactic Offline
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I am with J. What do we do, leave? That is rather near sighted.
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#462443 - 11/28/05 07:51 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Yes, I read that. In the context of the rest of the speech, it did not jibe with current force levels and activities. Is "the mission" the self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces? It seems that fewer troops, deployed differently would be more appropriate for that goal.

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#462444 - 11/28/05 07:52 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
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I think that Iraq's pathetic forces have proved that we should probably add more US troops.
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#462445 - 11/28/05 07:58 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
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There are well-intentioned arguments that the mission could be better accomplished with fewer troops, and there are well-intentioned arguments that the mission could be better accomplished with more troops.

The theatre commander has indicated that the current footprint, likely to be reduced after the election in two weeks, is appropriate. I believe he is in the best position to make this determination.

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#462446 - 11/28/05 08:01 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
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I agree with Joker, he is in the best position. Not Murtha or any other back seat politician.
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#462447 - 11/28/05 08:07 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
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Can we not get this started please. People that have heard me on this know where I stand. But I will not allow Murtha to become some right-wing pariah. Nation, your comment leads me to a completely different conclusion but I will refrain.

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#462448 - 11/28/05 08:17 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Quote:

There are well-intentioned arguments that the mission could be better accomplished with fewer troops, and there are well-intentioned arguments that the mission could be better accomplished with more troops.




That's true no matter what "the mission" is. I just don't happen to know what "the mission" is. Being a simple barbarian, I'd like to know (a) what the mission is, and (b)what signs/portents/measures/etc. will tell us we've achieved it.

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#462449 - 11/28/05 09:21 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Jokerman Offline
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I was responding to your post:

"Is "the mission" the self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces? It seems that fewer troops, deployed differently would be more appropriate for that goal."

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#462450 - 11/28/05 09:23 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Anonymous
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Having realized that there is no reasonable solution for fixing the looming Social Security shortfall, the Administration's mission is to drag-out the conflict in Iraq until such time as it is someone else's problem.

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#462451 - 11/28/05 09:25 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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You were responding to one part of what I wrote, and I understood the response. The other part asked "Is 'the mission' Iraqi self-sufficiency?" and in the subsequent post, I asked explicitly, "What is 'the mission'?"

If anyone knows, please share.

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#462452 - 11/28/05 09:31 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
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The mission, as I see it, is to promote an Iraqi government that opposes terrorism, respects human rights, represents its people, and can defend itself.

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#462453 - 11/28/05 09:37 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Anonymous
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Quote:

You were responding to one part of what I wrote, and I understood the response. The other part asked "Is 'the mission' Iraqi self-sufficiency?" and in the subsequent post, I asked explicitly, "What is 'the mission'?"

If anyone knows, please share.



Here's an answer that I hear often: We are at war people! By questioning it you are giving comfort to the enemy. (notice how it still didn't answer the question but implied that you were unamerican.)

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#462454 - 11/28/05 09:57 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

Here's an answer that I hear often: We are at war people! By questioning it you are giving comfort to the enemy. (notice how it still didn't answer the question but implied that you were unamerican.)




Stop listening to those voices.

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#462455 - 11/28/05 10:03 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Anonymous
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I guess my question is, where do we go after we get Iraq straightened out? Opposing terrorism, respecting human rights, and supporting governments that support and defend their own people is indeed a noble goal. Are we going to limit our actions to just Iraq?

Signed,
Another Anon

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#462456 - 11/28/05 10:06 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

I guess my question is, where do we go after we get Iraq straightened out? Opposing terrorism, respecting human rights, and supporting governments that support and defend their own people is indeed a noble goal. Are we going to limit our actions to just Iraq?




If, by action, you mean military, then perhaps, perhaps not. I'm sure that each administration will weigh their options and ask for Congressional authority on the merits of the situation.

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#462457 - 11/28/05 10:10 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Anonymous
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But surely the merits are the same in Iran, Korea and so on as they were in Iraq? And it would be this administration, wouldn't it? They've got three more years, at least. How is the criteria different for these countries?

Signed,
Another Anon

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#462458 - 11/28/05 10:11 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

But surely the merits are the same in Iran, Korea and so on as they were in Iraq? And it would be this administration, wouldn't it? They've got three more years, at least. How is the criteria different for these countries?




Do you honestly believe that there are no differences?

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#462459 - 11/28/05 10:18 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Anonymous
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Do you honestly believe there are not?

Signed,
Another Anon

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#462460 - 11/28/05 10:37 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Alien Offline
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I think we will be at war with Iran within the next four years, after Iran fires its first nuclear weapon on Israel. I have no illusions that the day Iran gets its hand on a nuke, it well attacks Israel. Remember, they do not care about their own survival - their ultimate objective is to destroy Israel.

On the issue of why we are still in Iraq, well – let’s go back a few decades - we went to war with Germany some 55 years ago – however our troops are still stationed there. That does not mean that WWII is still going on. There is specific need for the troops there. Likewise, we will be Iraq for decades to come –even if the Democrats come into power in 2008.

Trouble is we are the microwave generation – we put stuff in the microwave and pace the floor while the food cooks. We want instant results, something which we seek in Iraq. That is never going to happen. This is a religious war and could potentially last thousands of years – as long as the Iraqi people are not willing to stand up for themselves, we will remain there as buffers between the various sects.
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#462461 - 11/28/05 10:57 PM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

Do you honestly believe there are not?




I'm sorry, is the question, do I honestly believe that there are not no differences? (i.e., that they are identical?) I think this is your position, not mine.

As to what I believe about this, please see the trouble brewing thread.

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#462462 - 11/29/05 12:53 AM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Anonymous
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Quote:

But surely the merits are the same in Iran, Korea and so on as they were in Iraq?




Not the same at all. Iran is a radical Islamic state with a nuclear program. Iraq was a secular state without one. North Korea is a known supplier of nuclear production materials, has nuclear weapons and has long range missiles that can deliver them. None of those were true of Iraq.

No, not the same at all.

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#462463 - 11/29/05 01:00 AM Re: What Jokerman read for lunch
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Quote:

The mission, as I see it, is to promote an Iraqi government that opposes terrorism, respects human rights, represents its people, and can defend itself.




Thank you. Is that the same mission that President Bush believes he has?

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