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#477109 - 12/30/05 06:18 PM Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
straw Offline
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straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051230/ap_o...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The Justice Department announced it will conduct a probe into the NYT's story regarding warrantless surveillance by the NSA.

If the leak was unlawful, but the warrantless surveillance is constitutional, what would prevent the Executive from committing an abuse of power by unconstitutional surveilling every American citizen, hypothetically?

If unlawful to leak the abuse based upon national security, what is the balance against this power under the Constitution?

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#477110 - 12/30/05 06:53 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Creditcop Offline
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Creditcop
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,685
Indiana
If the leak was unlawful, which I think it is, the NYT has put the country at risk by basically telling terriorists to stay off your phones. Who should be punished and how?

There are what 350 million people in the country and the Executive branch is going to have time to listen in on everyone? Yeah right, the President doesn't have anything better to do. You forget that the Executive branch kept the Congress informed about its activities in this area.

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#477111 - 12/30/05 06:58 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Anonymous
Unregistered

Straw, it is just poor taste to lie about the extent of the intrusion.

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#477112 - 12/30/05 07:00 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
°X° Offline
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°X°
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Posts: 7,332
WOOHOO
Apparently, you did not go to the Wizard for a brain this past Christmas. Inherent power is with the President, regardless of the law. It comes from the Constitution - end of case.

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#477113 - 12/30/05 07:11 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Anonymous
Unregistered

X, Ron here, did you read my posts regarding the constitutionality of wiretaps?

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#477114 - 12/30/05 07:42 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
straw Offline
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straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

Apparently, you did not go to the Wizard for a brain this past Christmas. Inherent power is with the President, regardless of the law. It comes from the Constitution - end of case.




So then your tremendous analytical abilities conclude that the President has the power to warrantless wiretap every phone line in the US?

At least you didn't cut and paste your answer, but maybe you should try to find an article that explains this position better than you can.

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#477115 - 12/30/05 07:45 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
straw Offline
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straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

Straw, it is just poor taste to lie about the extent of the intrusion.




And it is poor taste to lie about the extent of my post. I asked hypothetically, what if the President did extend the wire taps to many more Americans, but it is illegal to reveal this.

In a prior thread, some argued that the President would be impeached for an abuse of power, but if illegal to disclose these things, wouldn't the hypothetical abuse of power have a better chance of going unchallenged?

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#477116 - 12/30/05 07:47 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
straw Offline
Power Poster
straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

If the leak was unlawful, which I think it is, the NYT has put the country at risk by basically telling terriorists to stay off your phones. Who should be punished and how?


There are what 350 million people in the country and the Executive branch is going to have time to listen in on everyone? Yeah right, the President doesn't have anything better to do. You forget that the Executive branch kept the Congress informed about its activities in this area.




But apparently the Constitution does not prevent the Executive branch (not the Presdient personally) from doing this. I have a difficult time accepting this conclusion, which is where the arguments in support of this seem to lead.

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#477117 - 12/30/05 07:50 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
(a) If the leak was in regards to an actual abuse of power, no jury would convict.

(b) The justice department often looks into these things and declines to prosecute. Given what Chucky Schumer put the country through with his Valerie Plame hysteria, it would be fair for them to nail this person, but only after forcing a NYT reporter to sit in prison for six months. In the end, though, I don't think such criminal prosecution would generally be a good idea. They should lose their job, though - and an honorable person would have resigned, anyway, and gone public with their criticism.

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#477118 - 12/30/05 07:53 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
straw Offline
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straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

(a) If the leak was in regards to an actual abuse of power, no jury would convict.




Probably not, but wouldn't this be a deterrent for a person to come forward. And since this was cited as one avenue to prevent the potential abuse, it is interesting.

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#477119 - 12/30/05 08:01 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
billhilly Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 52
This is like trying to find out which fireman first saw the smoke prior to alerting others that there was a fire. Unbelievable.

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#477120 - 12/30/05 08:04 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Jokerman Offline
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Posts: 12,846
Quote:

This is like trying to find out which fireman first saw the smoke prior to alerting others that there was a fire. Unbelievable.




No, this is like trying to find out which fireman tipped off the arsonists as to how to avoid the sprinklers.

The Plame "leak" investigation, meanwhile, which billhilly is on record as finding important, was more like trying to prosecute the fireman who turned on a hose.

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#477121 - 12/30/05 08:22 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
billhilly Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 52
This is why democracy is dying in this country. You have a President who is unchecked in his powers, a compliant congress and press, and a bunch of yahoos who think that Dubya is the second coming.

It was reported before the Iraq invasion that NSA was illegally monitoring UN delegates who were in the US. This was forgotten and all but ignored in the MSM. Now we get this latest news and all the "data mining" which is like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack. If the evidence has not been destroyed, which it most likely has been, you could bet your bottom dollar that Bush has been spying on political enemies within our states for no reason other than because he can.

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#477122 - 12/30/05 08:27 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

If the evidence has not been destroyed, which it most likely has been, you could bet your bottom dollar that Bush has been spying on political enemies within our states for no reason other than because he can.




So there is a huge conspiracy between the administration and the intelligence community which I think we can all agree has tried in several instances to damage it? Wow. I'll have what he's smoking.

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#477123 - 12/30/05 08:38 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

a compliant congress and press





WHAT!!!!!!! The only time, if even then, they are compliant is when it serves them. Especially the press.

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#477124 - 12/30/05 08:42 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
billhilly Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 52
A "real" Justice Department should investigate the "real" crime. In this case it is Herr Bush and the blatant disregard for the laws of our land. I am so glad he has restored dignity to the White House.

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#477125 - 12/30/05 08:43 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Herr Bush




Well, at least he keeps a sound perspective...

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#477126 - 12/30/05 08:47 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
straw Offline
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straw
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it's good we can debate these serious issues without invective.

I think this signals much worse trouble for our democracy than the administration's actions.

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#477127 - 12/30/05 09:33 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
°X° Offline
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°X°
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WOOHOO
Remember the original New York Times article:

“Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation’s legality and oversight.”

Tom Dasachle fits into one of these categories.

In think this story is far bigger then most realize.

Those DNC e-mails that some young Republican fell on his sword for all of a sudden take on a whole new significance. If they are connected the walls will run read at the DNC and New York Times.

ESPIONAGE AND CENSORSHIP
Disclosure of classified information

a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information -- ~~snip~~

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(b) As used in subsection (a) of this section -- The term ``classified information'' means information which, at the time of a violation of this section, is, for reasons of national security, specifically designated by a United States Government Agency for limited or restricted dissemination or distribution...

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#477128 - 12/30/05 09:39 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
°X° Offline
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°X°
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Posts: 7,332
WOOHOO
We will probably have to deal with these liberal nutcases next year as well. Convervatives should keep in mind:

Conservatives are—by their very essence—the brightest hope of America’s future. They are not ignorant, violent, or racist. They believe in equality for all men and women, yet know that it must not extend to a great experiment; an experiment rooted in socialistic fundamentals. They believe you reap what you sow, defining the difference of abilities.

American conservatives are the very spirit of the greatest country in the world. They are the engine in the American machine, the machine that produced a superpower and helps spread liberty to all men and women. It is their indefatigable nature that provided for surpluses of wealth not found in the “civilized” areas of the world. They are staunch defenders of the U.S. Constitution. They remind all that power should be kept under local control, and that privatizing is an inexorably good quality for the country. They breed a proper system of checks and balances for government, the market and private citizens.

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#477129 - 12/30/05 09:40 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
rainman Offline
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rainman
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,242
Quote:

Quote:

(a) If the leak was in regards to an actual abuse of power, no jury would convict.




Probably not, but wouldn't this be a deterrent for a person to come forward. And since this was cited as one avenue to prevent the potential abuse, it is interesting.




If the leak related to illegal wiretapping, the leaker might be protected by whistleblower laws (although that might only apply if the leaker went to Congress instead of the press).
_________________________
Nobody's perfect, not even a perfect stranger.

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#477130 - 12/30/05 09:43 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
rainman Offline
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rainman
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Posts: 3,242
Quote:

it's good we can debate these serious issues without invective.

I think this signals much worse trouble for our democracy than the administration's actions.




Straw, I couldn't agree more. Here's to a happy new year, less invective, and more reasoned discussion!
_________________________
Nobody's perfect, not even a perfect stranger.

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#477131 - 12/30/05 10:06 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
straw Offline
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straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

We will probably have to deal with these liberal nutcases next year as well. Convervatives should keep in mind:

Conservatives are—by their very essence—the brightest hope of America’s future. They are not ignorant, violent, or racist. They believe in equality for all men and women, yet know that it must not extend to a great experiment; an experiment rooted in socialistic fundamentals. They believe you reap what you sow, defining the difference of abilities.

American conservatives are the very spirit of the greatest country in the world. They are the engine in the American machine, the machine that produced a superpower and helps spread liberty to all men and women. It is their indefatigable nature that provided for surpluses of wealth not found in the “civilized” areas of the world. They are staunch defenders of the U.S. Constitution. They remind all that power should be kept under local control, and that privatizing is an inexorably good quality for the country. They breed a proper system of checks and balances for government, the market and private citizens.




You have a unique perspective on checks and balances, since you assert that the President's war powers include his ability to order warrrantless wiretaps on any and all Americans.

You also forgot to mention that Conservatives are paragons of virtue, have no faults and a perfect incarnations of political beings.

Or did you just yet again cut and paste your post?

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#477132 - 12/30/05 10:33 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
°X° Offline
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°X°
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,332
WOOHOO
Cut, paste and post - you seem a little obsessed that I can do that: let’s see, I have a PC, I know how it works – there’s lots of good stuff on the internet, etc. Besides, your positions, generally speaking, are so lame and vapid that I’ve elected to not waste my time thinking about them as that would be a senseless and useless activity. Therefore, I depend on others who have taken the time to respond to the lame and use their words.

So you see, it’s a way of dealing with the lame, e.g. you, without much effort – very productive – don’t you think?

On the other hand, if you ever post an original thought, not just democRAT talking points, I’m ready to respond. Although I’ve set aside limited time to deal with the lame, I’m making this offer with the thought that that will never happen as indicated by your posting history.

So, yes, we both need to post original thoughts, but in my case – it simply no worth the effort to respond to the lame.

Have a good New Years, Buckwheat!

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#477133 - 12/30/05 10:38 PM Re: Justice Department Probes Surveillance Leak
Anonymous
Unregistered

X, this is honest curiosity.

I have noticed in several of your posts you use the term Buckwheat. This usualy makes me think of the old Our Gang shows and the character Buckwheat.

Would you explain your fixation (for lack of a better term) on the use of Buckwheat?

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