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#57719 - 02/04/03 03:43 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
ShawnMosch Offline
Junior Member
ShawnMosch
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 27
>>I will try to be as cordial as possible, but in essence Shawn got taken, he’s mad and he’s blaming the bank>>

And I will try to be cordial too . . . if you would have read my first post in which I said "My husband and I became victims of this scam" you would see that I am a SHE. I think that this alone shows that you are not really listening to what the issue is here.

>>and from his comments he must be in some sort of management or supervisory position>>

My current work, besides being an at home mother of two, is a part-time position as a custom closet salesperson, but I have worked for several different companies over the years at several different levels.

>>have some knowledge of the difference between cleared funds and available funds and how long it takes a check to clear>>

I was aware that their was a difference between funds available and check clearance, and as I have stated in past posts, I made sure I asked about check clearance. I even questioned the teller when they said 24 hours. I said "I thought it took more like 10 days for a check to clear", and he said no, with a cashier's check it is clear in 24 hours. Since in retail I have never accepted cashier's checks, just personal checks, I assumed that the bank employee knew what he was talking about when he said that cashier's checks clear faster than average checks.

>>By the way, if his store had been paid with one of these cashier checks under the same circumstance where the person using the cashier check was not aware it was counterfit, and it got returned, I bet the store would be going after the person to recover the money. So was it the store’s fault this person got taken because they didn’t verify the funds properly?>>

We do not accept cashier's checks in retail situations. Cash, personal check, or credit cards please. And, with all checks, they have to be accepted through our check system or the transaction will not go through. If anyone overrides this system and passes the check through and it does come back at the store, THE STORE is the one out the money (and the merchandise in that case)

And, years ago there were counterfeit $50 bills going around my local area and the police did warn all retailers to be on the look out for them. Had we taken one, we as the business would have been out the money. So what did we do? We did not accept any $50 bills. We had some customers get very upset when we asked for smaller bills, but once thier transaction was complete we could tell them that the reason was because their were counterfeit $50 going aroud the area. These customers actually thanked us and said that they would go to their bank to have the bank check the $50 that they had, and make sure that they were good, and exchange them out for smaller bills so that they would not run into this problem again at other stores in that area.

>>I’m sorry you got taken in this scam, but it is not your bank’s fault.>>

I do not blame the bank for the scam. I blame them for not giving me the correct information to the specific question that I asked, and then for holding me responsible when I followed those directions.

Shawn

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Operations Compliance
#57720 - 02/04/03 03:51 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
thomasj Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,063
Pennsylvania
Shawn,

I hate to reply again to this thread as it is obvious to me that anything that anyone says to you is not going to change how you feel. You have chosen bits and pieces of everyone's responses and came back with a rebutal. The fact of the matter boils down to - you endorsed the back of the check and you assumed responsibility for it. You have chosen not to reply to this basic aspect of this situation. Your recourse is back to the person who issued the check to you and your bank's recourse is back to you.

In reply to:

And that is why I suggested the release form. If a customer wants the money now because they know the check is from their brother and it is good, then they sign a release saying that they are aware that this check has not yet been "cleared", so the bank is in no way liable for anything that happens with the check or the money. But if the person does not know the sender of the check very well, this may make them rethink and wait for the check to clear.





The bank is not liable for items you deposit to your account so the signing of a "waiver" is not logical.

As far as wanting to shut down Nigerian scams, you are preaching to the choir whe you are talking to us. We hate these scams and are already doing all we can to protect our customers and ourselves. We are required to know our customers, and when you are engaging in the sale of a car or anyother business dealing you need to be aware of who you are dealing with as well.

Again, sorry you were taken, but you are pointing a finger in the wrong direction.
_________________________
Knowledge is knowing what to say. Wisdom is knowing when to say it.

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#57721 - 02/04/03 04:00 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Retired DQ Offline
10K Club
Retired DQ
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,766
Turnpike Exit 10
If anyone hasn't read the letter proposed by
scamvictimsunited, click here
it's pretty interesting to see what the outcome could
possibly be.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

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#57722 - 02/04/03 04:08 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
ShawnMosch Offline
Junior Member
ShawnMosch
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 27
Really, I would like to get this thread back on track. I posted to it because it appeared to be a group of people in the banking business who also saw that this scam was a growing problem and were looking for ways to help prevent any loss . . . to the bank or the customers. Since I have joined, the messages have turned to "you did it now accept it" . . . where did all the people who wanted to find a way to protect everyone go?!?

Past posts by bankers included . . .
-I see a huge training opportunity here.

-Why not ask the depositor what he plans on doing with the funds?

-What about signage in the lobby?

So to get things back on track I would like to suggest warnings on bank websites about this scam. I have had the help of several car selling websites, like americandreamcars.com, who have posted warnings on their sites for the sellers of cars. This has save hundreds of people in just the past few months.

Do any of the banks have any sort of newsletter where they can warn people that way?

I accept that I was scammed. I accept that the banking rules hold you to release the funds. I accept that the bad guys are in Nigeria. Can we try to find a way to warn people on a larger scale. I am doing what I can with my website, but if the banking industry would also join the fight against this scam by warning their customers think of how many more would be saved!

Will you help me?

Shawn

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#57723 - 02/04/03 04:58 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Retired DQ Offline
10K Club
Retired DQ
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,766
Turnpike Exit 10
As Bonnie M. pointed out in an earlier thread,
new exposure (20/20, etc) would be good. The banks in my
locale do community service training in areas
such as fraud and ID theft, however, we've
neither the time or resources to cover the
entire state. And, personally, I feel that consumers
should take some responsibility for educating them-
selves. There are resources everywhere, they just
need to be broadcasted.

_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

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#57724 - 02/04/03 05:27 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
I assume that you have contacted the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC Web Site is an excellent soure of consumer protection and warning information. The FDIC Consumer News publication is also another avenue to utilize in putting this information in the hands of the general public.

I think I can speak on behalf of most banks that we would welcome the opportunity to insert a consumer protection leaflet in our customer statements. We could also have a warning leaflet or brochure available for customer pick up at our branch office locations. Perhaps you could try to petition the FTC (or some other government protection agency) to prepare and furnish us with these types of consumer protection materials.

Because of the declining interest rate environment, all of our budgets are TIGHT, but we certainly want to alert our customers of current scams and frauds.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

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#57725 - 02/04/03 06:47 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
ShawnMosch Offline
Junior Member
ShawnMosch
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 27
Thank you for your suggestions. I have been emailing shows like 20/20, Nightline, Prime Time, Dateline and others on a weekly basis . . . none of them seem to want to do the story. I have sent out story to magazines and newspapers also.

I have also contacted the FTC, FDIC, FBI, Secret Service, Comptroller of the Currency and the Attorney General. All I get is "that is someone elses department, call this number" and then that one tells me the same thing.

I am looking into starting a non-profit organization to help spread the word about this scam sometime soon. If we created a warning flyer/leaflet who in the banks would I contact and speak with in order to find out if they would give them to their customers?

What about the idea of the warning on the websites for the banks? Since our check came from the Bank of America I know that if we had gone to the website for that bank and seen that they had a warning we would not gone on with the deal.

What about a press release from the banks? Would they do that? It would not cost them anything and the local news might pick it up and that would help spread the word (plus it would make the bank look even better because they would be warning the customers)

Would any of these work?
Shawn

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#57726 - 02/04/03 06:58 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Princess Romeo Offline

Power Poster
Princess Romeo
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,272
Where the heart is
I sent a summary of the situation to the FDIC and received a response from the person who electronically sends out the FIL's. He responded that he has given the information to his colleagues who work on these matters and see how they want to proceed.

Shawn - again may I say I sympathize with what happened to you. The reason you probably are getting the resistance you are receiving on this board is your proposal that basically seems to hang all responsibility for fraudulent items on the banking industry.

Your proposal includes:
Requiring banks to give full disclosure of the true time period for check clearance, not just funds "availability", to the customer
We have pages and pages of disclosures, and most customers do not bother to read them. The rules regarding check clearance and not simple, and processing times are contingent on many factors. Please feel free to read all of Regulation CC at this webpage: Reg CC from the FDIC Rules and Regulations

- Multiple security watermarks on all cashier's checks to make them more difficult to counterfeit I think I discussed earlier why this would offer little protection.

- Require that funds cannot be released until verified as good by the bank, unless the customer signs a release
Again - a paper tiger nightmare of more disclosures, record retention, and increased costs to both banks and their customers.
- Hold financial institutions liable for any monetary loss due to the customers reliance on false, inaccurate or misleading statements by bank and their employees
There are already laws on the books that take care of this. The problem is exactly what was mis-leading? You have one interpretation on how you feel you were mis-lead. The teller probably felt she answered your question as she understood it. Is that false or misleading? Usually a judge and jury will decide that.
- Mandatory holding periods on all checks of a substantial amount, unless the customer signs a release
Please review Reg CC. However, if you are able to get Reg CC revoked, you will have earned the gratitude of just about everyone on this forum!
- Setting a time period, such as 30 days, in which by law all banks must verify the funds are good on all cashier's checks. Any issues with the check after this time period are the responsibility of the bank.
Another recordkeeping and documentation issue with increased costs and delays for everyone involved.

Your proposal above runs contrary to the entire check processing system set up in this country. The check processing system is an intricate tapestry of government, quasi-government and private industry systems. Your proposal would require this entire system be dismantled and re-assembled with untold consequences for other commerce that needs to be transacted.

If financial institutions understand that they will be help totally liable for any monetary losses due to false or misleading statements or neglect to follow the above described check clearing and verification process the financial institutions will take measures to protect themselves from this type of loss, thus protecting the customer, the financial system, and reducing the criminal activity of producing counterfeit cashier’s checks.

Actually - financial institutions would simply stop accepting Cashier's Check for deposit - period. The ripple effect from that carries untold consequences.

Basically - we ARE working on getting the word out and making both front-line and customers aware of these dangers. However, this won't help your particular situation as we cannot go back in time and warn all involved. You were caught on the leading edge of this scam.
_________________________
CRCM,CAMS
Regulations are a poor substitute for ethics.
Just sayin'

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#57727 - 02/04/03 07:03 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
JacF Offline

Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,719
PA
In reply to:

where did all the people who wanted to find a way to protect everyone go?!?



I think we're all still here. And I feel that together we have accomplished an important next step in our collective campaign against fraud. In order to bring about any sort of change, we must have an understanding of the current obstacles in our banking and legislative environments. The reason this scam works is because the fraudster has successfully exploited one line of one regulation. By considering the Law of Unintended Consequences, we see both how this happend, and how proposed changes could bring about more unintended consequences.

Yes, I still see a huge training opportunity here. Yes, I still advocate asking the depositor for more detail. But one thing I simply am unable to do in relation to banking is to think like a consumer. And that is where your input, as both a depositor and a scam victim, has given me insight which will enhance the value of training in my corner of the world.

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#57728 - 02/04/03 07:10 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Princess Romeo Offline

Power Poster
Princess Romeo
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,272
Where the heart is
In reply to:

Would any of these work?
Shawn



I can tell you that there will be magic bullet that will stop this scam, or even effectively warn everyone. Things just don't happen in our society that quickly. Look at the issues that went on before 9/11 and some of the warning signs that were there. Look at the whole issue of Identity Theft. That crime has been around since at least 1994, and government, media, etc. is NOW finally addressing it.

You will need to keep doing what you are doing. Know that the members who frequent this forum have taken steps to educate front-line staff in their institutions. One of our tellers recently caught a fraudulent Cashier's Check before the customer deposited it. The word is spreading, but it won't happen overnight.

I, personally, have been trying to alert the government on the dangers of HMDA reporting and how easily a mortgage applicant's privacy and personal information can be compromised because of it. I also received a non-interested response. I will keep warning people about it, because I feel it could become a huge issue. Imagine anyone being able to find out your household income, and the race of you and your spouse all because you got a mortgage loan. The potential for Hate Crimes, and focused Identity Theft are there. Beginning in 2005, even more information will be available that could aid predatory lenders and other scam artists. Banks have no choice but to report this information. 20/20, etc. did not even return my e-mail.

It's a frustrating world. It seems good guys do not finish first. Please read the Security Section on this website as well as the Security forum. You will find out this fraud is but a small piece of all of the scams that are out there.
_________________________
CRCM,CAMS
Regulations are a poor substitute for ethics.
Just sayin'

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#57729 - 02/04/03 07:47 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
waldensouth Offline
Power Poster
waldensouth
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,983
FINALLY ABOVE the gnat line
Shawn, we could do all of these things that you ask and are, in fact, doing some of these. Does it work? You tell me:

Customer is being victimized by the Canadian Lottery Scam. They have taken $200,000 from her to date. Her family refuses to declare her incompetent to manage her affairs. The Bank staff(who discovered the scam), the local police, the FBI, and the Secret Service have ALL tried to convince this customer that she is being ripped off. She thinks she's just gambling and that we are all overly concerned. There are those who might actually read the statement stuffers or lobby brochures and could be helped. They might actually watch the special programs on TV or read the warning in the newspaper. It could help some. Will it prevent this from happening? doubtful

I applaud your efforts at getting the word out about this particular scam. Our company is particularly sensitive to the Nigerian scams, since our internal audit department saved one of our customers from losing everything. The customer, incidentially, was not grateful but very angry that we interferred with his new business venture. There seems to be a strong "It can't happen to me - I'm too smart" feeling when it comes to this type of scam. There have been articles in our local newspapers. You can put the info out there but you can't generate interest or force people to read it.

Simply as a matter of curiosity, prior to being a victim of this scam, were you an ordinary customer who threw away all of your statement stuffers and didn't read the booklets at the teller window?
_________________________
"Once you learn to read, you will be forever free."

- Frederick Douglass




My Opinion Only.

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#57730 - 02/04/03 08:47 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
BrendaC Offline
Power Poster
BrendaC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
I doubt you will find any bank willing to use a security alert or notice crafted by anyone other than a government entity or well-known, established vendor (with a guaranty on the product). Compliance is a slippery slope. Even the slightest mis-step and we could risk damage to our bottom line and, even more importantly, our reputation. I am not saying that anything in a message designed by a third party would intentionally contain erroneous, misleading or inaccurate information. I am saying that we just couldn't take that chance because we are ultimately liable for everything we provide to our customers. (That's why we rely heavily on the government's "model" language for the simplest things like checking account disclosures and lobby notices.)

I just can't imagine that some local newspapers and TV stations haven't found these situations newsworthy. They will include a segment on Joe BigBucks but won't cover a local citizen who wants to warn others about active scams and frauds. There is really something wrong with that picture, isn't there?
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.

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#57731 - 02/04/03 10:51 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
ShawnMosch Offline
Junior Member
ShawnMosch
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 27
Bonnie,
I truely thank you for going through the list of ideas I proposed, and showing me your views on them. Because I am a banking customer, not a banker, I guess I just did not see where some of these ideas would really be that hard to do. That is why I need to have the help of people like you to show me what can be done to better protect customers AND banks from this sort of scam.

I also thank you for contacting the FDIC on this matter. I feel like many times when I try to bring up the issue with any agency like this they just blow me off as a bitter customer and do not really listen to my ideas and concerns. My former bank has settled out of court with me, so getting the money back in no longer the issue, it is about protecting others before it is too late for them. Maybe I am just too close to the subject and that would be why I feel so strongly that something needs to be done right away. (or maybe it is my Irish temper)
Since I keep seeing more and more victims every day that is why I do not feel like any one is doing anything; I don't see any changes happening.

I guess when I was talking about full disclosure, I was talking about when the customer is there in the bank, not just in the paperwork that the customers do not read. Would it be a lot to ask that the tellers say that cashier's checks, like personal checks, are not verified as good and clear until they have completed the full clearing system?

>>Please review Reg CC. However, if you are able to get Reg CC revoked, you will have earned the gratitude of just about everyone on this forum!>>

Why don't bankers like Reg CC? Even if I read it I am not sure I would really understand it like all of you do, so can you put the good and bad of it into everyday English for me?

Like I said, I am a Mom who was a victim. When I look at the list I made it seems like suggestions that could work. I am glad to have the views of the people like you here to help me. I really think if we work together we can find some way to keep both the banks and the customers safe.

Besides message boards like this, how else are banks getting the word out about this scam?

Thanks,
Shawn



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#57732 - 02/04/03 11:00 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
ShawnMosch Offline
Junior Member
ShawnMosch
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 27
>>Simply as a matter of curiosity, prior to being a victim of this scam, were you an ordinary customer who threw away all of your statement stuffers and didn't read the booklets at the teller window? >>

I actually have every one of my statements back to 1995 (all from that same bank) but I get your point . . . no matter how many times we put it out there, the people who really need it may never see it. Maybe that is why I went out on the mission to change the laws so that it would be almost impossible for this scam to work so that every one would be protected, not just the ones who read the info.

Am I dreaming the impossible dream?

Shawn

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#57733 - 02/04/03 11:06 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
ShawnMosch Offline
Junior Member
ShawnMosch
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 27
>>I doubt you will find any bank willing to use a security alert or notice crafted by anyone other than a government entity or well-known, established vendor (with a guaranty on the product). >>

What if the bank posted thier own warnings and notices on their own websites? Then the bank's legal department can go over all of the wording and stuff first.

>>I just can't imagine that some local newspapers and TV stations haven't found these situations newsworthy. >>
We have gotten some local coverage, but once you do one station the others don't want to do the story. Every one wants to be first to break the news. We did a local TV and a local newspaper, CBS Evening News with Dan Rathers and Wired magazine. Next month we will be in Minnesota Law and Politics.

Shawn

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#57734 - 02/04/03 11:20 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
John Burnett Offline
10K Club
John Burnett
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
I know I will regret adding anything to this already lengthy discussion, but --

I applaud the lady's desire to spread the word. I am amazed at how many scams there are, and the huge numbers of victims that succumb to them. Some of them (like the "pigeon drop") are older than Methuselah, but Barnum was right! There is one born every minute!

We educate our kids about the rules of the road, but there are always those who ignore their own mortality.

We educate them about the dangers of booze and tobacco and other drugs, yet there are those who ignore our hard-earned wisdom.

And we will warn people about advance fee scams and phony checks, and the "Canadian lottery," but there will always be those who think "I'm too smart for that" (and they aren't).

But don't give up, Shawn. We always need people who will advocate for a cause, no matter how frustratingly arduous the task. There will always be some who get the message.
_________________________
John S. Burnett
BankersOnline.com
Fighting for Compliance since 1976
Bankers' Threads User #8

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#57735 - 02/04/03 11:40 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Princess Romeo Offline

Power Poster
Princess Romeo
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,272
Where the heart is
In reply to:

Would it be a lot to ask that the tellers say that cashier's checks, like personal checks, are not verified as good and clear until they have completed the full clearing system?



This is where we get into the quasi-legal equivilent of hair-splitting. The fact is, a bonafide Cashier's Check IS good funds. You cannot place a stop payment on a Cashier's Check, nor can you return it as NSF. That is why Reg CC protects them like it does. The problem is that a counterfeit item is NOT a check, and therefore Reg CC technically doesn't apply to it. So what the teller NEEDS to say is that unless the customer has verified that the Cashier's Check is legitimate, we may not know it's a forgery for 5 to 7 days. If the customer has concerns that the check is a forgery, then they should contact the issuing bank (and I'll admit that with some of the larger banks this can be a daunting task), or send the item for collection (a long and sometimes expensive process) or wait 11 banking days just to be very sure.

In reply to:

Why don't bankers like Reg CC? Even if I read it I am not sure I would really understand it like all of you do, so can you put the good and bad of it into everyday English for me?



One of our regular members has stated he would rather have a root canal than try to figure out Reg CC. Without sounding too nerdish (I hope), do you remember an episode of Star Trek where Captain Kirk invented a card game to distract his captors? He kept inventing new rules as he went along to keep them confused. Well Reg CC can be a bit like a bad game of FizBin. There are times when you can hold an item 2 banking days, unless the item was deposited on the first Tuesday of the month following the first Monday after the full moon of a month ending in "Y." Okay - I exaggerate, but that's how convoluted some of the rules get.

In the Bankers Tools section are some attempts at plain English on Reg CC. You can look at one I submitted, although I must give the caveat that the hold days are more conservative (meaning in favor of giving availablility sooner) than some more aggresive interpretations of the Regulations for two situations: Treasury/Postal Money Order checks on an Exception Hold, and certain New Account holds.

Reg CC - Explanations

I also want to say "Thank you" for your willingness to understand our viewpoint on this issue. While we are not unsympathetic, there is only so much that we can do. So many times it seems that banks are in an adversarial relationship with the media and consumer groups. We are not all big, greedy impersonal institutions. However, I do not think you can point to an industry that manages to please everyone. In that regard, banks are no different than mechanics, retail stores, contractors, car dealers, public schools, phone companies, fast food chains, or any number of businesses that, for the most part, does a good job, but has plenty of detractors.
_________________________
CRCM,CAMS
Regulations are a poor substitute for ethics.
Just sayin'

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#57736 - 02/05/03 01:27 AM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
thomasj Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,063
Pennsylvania
This afternoon our branches started to call me to tell me that they were receiving faxes we all know as the Nigerian Advance Scam. The last time we were flooded with these two of our customers fell for the scheme. I e-mailed a two page memo (as I did the last time we received these faxes) to all employees about the scam and what to look for in customers who may be taken in. I told them also to be particularly careful with persons who ask questions about when a check will "clear". I have asked all of my branch managers and head tellers to make sure every one reads and understands the memo. I do not know what else I can do to prevent another victim. The last time one customer did not ask any questions or mention anything of the scam. The other individual was warned repeatedly and managed to fall victim anyway.
_________________________
Knowledge is knowing what to say. Wisdom is knowing when to say it.

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#57737 - 02/05/03 02:37 AM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
HRH Dawnie Offline
Power Poster
HRH Dawnie
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
Sean, I'm jumping in here at the last moment (and please ignore my hat, it's in regards to another post, I really do have a brain under that thing!)

I've worked as a teller and I can tell you that when bringing up the "send on collection" routine...People have absolute fits. I have never (and that is the honest to god truth) had a client say, "Oh thank you for protecting me, please send it on collection and take ten days too two weeks to get me the funds just to be safe." It's a nice theory, but unfortunately unrealistic.

I believe in caution, and as you can see, we do try but are tied down by regulations which don't always protect you or us. Hopefully we can work together to make things better in the future...but my 15 years in banking says, when we figure this one out, they'll find something else to scam us with.

I would like to suggest that you contact Consumer Counseling Services about this issue. While they may not do a whole heck of alot, they have the ability to tug the ears of people who might get the word out. Their primary services are to folks who have debt issues, but they do a variety of counseling on cash management and avoidence of scams which put people into difficult money positions in the first place.

With predatory lending being a hot topic, they're an agency folks listen to. A call from their national agency to CNN etc., might make a difference.

I do financial literacy conseling regularly. The folks I deal with are victims of deals like this due to language barriers and a lack of understanding of the financial world in general. That obviously wasn't the case for you, and in fact, if you hadn't had a good relationship with your bank prior to this, you probably would have had more difficulty with the item in the first place. Sometimes it dosen't pay to be a good guy

I like to think that if you'd ended up in my teller line I'd have saved you, but to be honest, if your balances were strong, you were a long time client, and you didn't indicate you were worried about the item being a forgery...I'd have given you credit for the relationship and not taken the extraordinary measure of sending the item out for collection. You were taken early in the scam. Now maybe I wouldn't be so gracious if I were behind the teller line...but 20/20 and all that!

Sorry you were hit hard! We do try to do what we can for our clients, we just can't solve it all unfortunately.
_________________________
Dawn Coursey VP/CRA Queen

CRA Rating is in...Oh who cares...I'm home with the baby.

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#57738 - 02/05/03 01:14 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Anonymous
Unregistered

Shawn,
If you think banks should make a disclosure, let me show you what it might look like:

Depending on the type of account you have with this bank, you may have received a funds avilability disclosure when the account was opened. This disclosure indicates when we make funds from deposited items available to you for withdrawal. It has no effect on whether an item you deposited may be returned by the drawee bank. Any check may be returned by the drawee bank. Some possible reasons inculde forgery, insufficient funds, payment stopped and account closed. Some items, including cashiers and other types of official checks may be returned as counterfeit.

Any check which you deposit to this account which is returned unpaid will be debited back to the account even if it creates an overdraft. Each signatory on the account is liable for an overdraft created by a return check.

Only the bank on which a check is drawn can determine if a check is properly payable. A depositary bank cannot know or even estimate when an unpaid item would be returned - it may be days or, in some cases, years before the item is returned by the drawee bank. Thus it is exceptionally important that you know the person who issued or endorsed the check to you. If you have questions about a particular check, contact the bank on which it is drawn


You should be very grateful that the teller misinformed you. He or she made a mistake that merited a reprimand at best. Had the teller given you the explanation above and you been appreciative of the advice, the funds would have still been in the account when the check was returned and you would have been out exactly the same amount of money.

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#57739 - 02/05/03 01:40 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Dan Persfull Offline
10K Club
Dan Persfull
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 47,517
Bloomington, IN
In reply to:

you would have been out exactly the same amount of money


But she's not, her former bank settled with her; so I have to agree with the Anon poster before you, the bank is the loser in this case and IMO they didn't do anything wrong under the circumstances.
_________________________
The opinions expressed are mine and they are not to be taken as legal advice.

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#57740 - 02/05/03 05:51 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability *DELETED*
Anonymous
Unregistered

Post deleted by John Burnett

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#57741 - 02/05/03 06:10 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
ShawnMosch Offline
Junior Member
ShawnMosch
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 27
Bonnie,
So would saying "Funds are available in 24 hours, but we recommend waiting 11 business days for the check to clear/be verified as good" a better wording?

Also, in your opinion, what is the safest way for a person to receive money? I know that the reason that all the victims I have spoken with have fallen for this is because they thought that cashier's checks were the safest way to go . . . they all thought it was as good as having cash in your hand.

Shawn

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#57742 - 02/05/03 06:11 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
JacF Offline

Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,719
PA
If you read the information on Shawn's website, you will see that she settled with her bank in December- long before this discussion took place. We do not know the results of the bank's internal investigation, nor do we know if the bank settled for the full amount of the check or met Shawn somewhere in the middle.

Yes, the bank is on the hook for the money, and it's a shame that anybody, be it the bank or Shawn or both, is stuck with a loss. But the reality is, this is not the first time a bank has paid the price for their employees' words, and it won't be the last time.

We'll never know if it was the bank's acceptance of some responsibility, fear of bad press, or realization that a loss in court was inevitable that drove them to reach settlement. And we really don't need to know.

Shawn came to us to offer valuable consumer insight on a topic we had already been discussiong without knowing her situation. While it is obvious that consumers benefit from awareness of scams, we as bankers also benefit in this case. I trust that more than one person has read this and thought 'I wonder what my tellers would have said.'

Some regular posters have offered opposing points of view, but have done so courteously, and with the backing of their own experiences and understanding of the regulations.

Yours in not the first anonymus post in this thread to walk the fine line between disagreement and personal attack. So I am publicly requesting that our resident BOL-breaker make it the last such post.

Mary Beth, could you please lock this thread? Thank you.

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#57743 - 02/05/03 06:30 PM Re: Counterfeit Cashier Check Liability
Dan Persfull Offline
10K Club
Dan Persfull
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 47,517
Bloomington, IN
Jac, I have to complement you on your above analysis and your conviction to this situation. Although I don't agree with the outcome (and I hope I did it not as a personal attack but as I how felt under the circumstance), I do sympathize with the victims of these scams and I too believe that the key to resolving these situations is consumer education.

Shawn, if any of my comments were taken that way, I do apologize.
_________________________
The opinions expressed are mine and they are not to be taken as legal advice.

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