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#601255 - 08/17/06 10:27 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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I love Jon Stewart 
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#601256 - 08/17/06 10:34 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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These are the parameters, according to Tony Snow:
"The program is carefully administered and only targets international phone calls coming into or out of the United States where one of the parties on the call is a suspected al-Qaida or affiliated terrorist."
not the sort of parameters i am talking about.
how about stuff like: these wiretaps may NOT be used for domestic law enforcement. no information derived from an otherwise allowable (terrorism-related) wiretap may be disseminated to domestic law enforcements services for domestic law enforcement purposes. any such info (aka tips, evidence) is inadmissable for domestic law enforcement. anybody found to have abused this will be punished by ____. etc...
Ron, you don't get it. The President is the Commander-in-Chief. He, and he alone, decides how to conduct the war. If the way he conducts the war is objectionable, you have two options: impeach him, or don't authorize funding. You cannot legally hedge in his authority to wage war - this is acceptable, but that is not. You cannot pass a law to overwrite the Constitution.
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#601257 - 08/17/06 10:34 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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I guarantee you the ACLU picked this court because they thought they had a good shot at winning there.
The judge's ruling is NOT the final say. That's what courts of appeals are for. I'll be curious to see what the Sixth Circuit has to say.
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#601258 - 08/17/06 10:37 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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I guarantee you the ACLU picked this court because they thought they had a good shot at winning there.
The judge's ruling is NOT the final say. That's what courts of appeals are for. I'll be curious to see what the Sixth Circuit has to say.
Let's see...Carter appointee...what do you think?
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#601259 - 08/17/06 11:16 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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Quote:
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These are the parameters, according to Tony Snow:
"The program is carefully administered and only targets international phone calls coming into or out of the United States where one of the parties on the call is a suspected al-Qaida or affiliated terrorist."
not the sort of parameters i am talking about.
how about stuff like: these wiretaps may NOT be used for domestic law enforcement. no information derived from an otherwise allowable (terrorism-related) wiretap may be disseminated to domestic law enforcements services for domestic law enforcement purposes. any such info (aka tips, evidence) is inadmissable for domestic law enforcement. anybody found to have abused this will be punished by ____. etc...
Ron, you don't get it. The President is the Commander-in-Chief. He, and he alone, decides how to conduct the war. If the way he conducts the war is objectionable, you have two options: impeach him, or don't authorize funding. You cannot legally hedge in his authority to wage war - this is acceptable, but that is not. You cannot pass a law to overwrite the Constitution.
I am not saying this rises to the following level, but in a time of war, can the President suspend the Constitution?
Before you answer with Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus during the Civil War, I guess te question is was that Constitutional?
Also, the Courts are the final arbiters regarding Constitutionality, which power is derived from separation of powers, aconcept you might want to become as familiar with as Commander-in-Chief.
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#601260 - 08/17/06 11:17 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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Before we start dividing up our support for the NSA program according to party affiliation, let's remember this from 1996:
The Clinton supported provision to allow the FBI to wiretap all telephones used by a suspected terrorist was dropped and one requiring explosives manufacturers to insert chemical tracers in their products was weakened to cover only plastic explosives.
A rare grouping of conservative Republicans and liberal Democrats succeeded in killing the wiretap provision on the grounds that it would encroach further on personal liberties.
Clinton said he wanted increased wiretap authority "for terrorists who are moving from place to place," adding: "Where they are flexible, so must we be."
Yes, he sought to get a law passed to do it legally. That's what should be done, not evasion of the law.
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#601261 - 08/17/06 11:27 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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Is Jon Stewart running in 2008?
I bet Mel Gibson will be his campaign manager.
Anyway, I hate Jon Lebowitz, the guy changed his name so he could hide his Jewish heritage.
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#601262 - 08/17/06 11:31 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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The argument that wiretapping constitutes "waging war" is complete nonsense. That is a domestic law enforcement power, that has never been under the powers of the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces.
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#601263 - 08/17/06 11:35 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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the guy changed his name so he could hide his Jewish heritage.
If you think he hides his Jewish heritage, then you must never have seen his show. He probably references it in more shows than he doesn't!
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#601264 - 08/17/06 11:47 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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Quote:
I am not saying this rises to the following level, but in a time of war, can the President suspend the Constitution?
Before you answer with Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus during the Civil War, I guess te question is was that Constitutional?
Also, the Courts are the final arbiters regarding Constitutionality, which power is derived from separation of powers, aconcept you might want to become as familiar with as Commander-in-Chief.
"The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."
U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section 9, Clause 2
No, a president cannot suspend the Constitution, but the Constitution itself permits the writ of habeus corpus to be suspended if there is a rebellion or invasion or if the public saftety requires it. (which begs the question, who gets to suspend it, the President or Congress?)
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#601265 - 08/17/06 11:56 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
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These are the parameters, according to Tony Snow:
"The program is carefully administered and only targets international phone calls coming into or out of the United States where one of the parties on the call is a suspected al-Qaida or affiliated terrorist."
not the sort of parameters i am talking about.
how about stuff like: these wiretaps may NOT be used for domestic law enforcement. no information derived from an otherwise allowable (terrorism-related) wiretap may be disseminated to domestic law enforcements services for domestic law enforcement purposes. any such info (aka tips, evidence) is inadmissable for domestic law enforcement. anybody found to have abused this will be punished by ____. etc...
Ron, you don't get it. The President is the Commander-in-Chief. He, and he alone, decides how to conduct the war. If the way he conducts the war is objectionable, you have two options: impeach him, or don't authorize funding. You cannot legally hedge in his authority to wage war - this is acceptable, but that is not. You cannot pass a law to overwrite the Constitution.
no, j, i think you don't get it. when his ability to wage war overlaps with domestic freedoms and liberties, his power is extremely limited. therefore, defining limits via law carves out and keeps sacred constitutional protections and at the same time allows him to prosecute his constitutional duty. now if those laws would unconstitutionally limit his power, then those laws would be unconstitutional. but it works both ways. by defining parameters, we at least have a baseline to adjudicate instances with.
by just saying his power trumps ALL, you are incorrect.
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#601266 - 08/18/06 12:04 AM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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No, a president cannot suspend the Constitution, but the Constitution itself permits the writ of habeus corpus to be suspended if there is a rebellion or invasion or if the public saftety requires it. (which begs the question, who gets to suspend it, the President or Congress?)
Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus was ruled unconstitutional - the power belongs to Congress. (it is found in the Constitution under the Article I powers of Congress)
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#601268 - 08/18/06 12:31 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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I am not saying this rises to the following level, but in a time of war, can the President suspend the Constitution?
No.
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Also, the Courts are the final arbiters regarding Constitutionality, which power is derived from separation of powers, aconcept you might want to become as familiar with as Commander-in-Chief.
Where does the Constitution say that?
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#601269 - 08/18/06 12:34 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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no, j, i think you don't get it. when his ability to wage war overlaps with domestic freedoms and liberties, his power is extremely limited.
Really? So, God forbid we're invaded on a mass scale...the President would need a warrant to invade the enemy's bunker! Hope Lincoln had court approval for Gettysburg...
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therefore, defining limits via law carves out and keeps sacred constitutional protections and at the same time allows him to prosecute his constitutional duty. now if those laws would unconstitutionally limit his power, then those laws would be unconstitutional. but it works both ways. by defining parameters, we at least have a baseline to adjudicate instances with.
I love it - you admit it would be unconsitutional to limit the power, but advocate for limiting the power.
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#601270 - 08/18/06 01:00 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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no, j, i think you don't get it. when his ability to wage war overlaps with domestic freedoms and liberties, his power is extremely limited.
Really? So, God forbid we're invaded on a mass scale...the President would need a warrant to invade the enemy's bunker! Hope Lincoln had court approval for Gettysburg...
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therefore, defining limits via law carves out and keeps sacred constitutional protections and at the same time allows him to prosecute his constitutional duty. now if those laws would unconstitutionally limit his power, then those laws would be unconstitutional. but it works both ways. by defining parameters, we at least have a baseline to adjudicate instances with.
I love it - you admit it would be unconsitutional to limit the power, but advocate for limiting the power.
But that is a completely different thing, we have not been invaded and this war is not the same as say WWI or WWII or even the Revolutionary War. This is a War on Terror which in itself is not the same thing because it is new! If we were invaded then the plays would change and the strategies would be different. I think the point here is the President and his office hid this wire tapping program from the other bodies of government. Why bother having a Congress if we are not going to use them as intended.
The President is not the sole governing body because we do not live in a dictatorship! There has to be a system of checks and balances as the Fore Fathers intended.
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#601271 - 08/18/06 01:20 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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But that is a completely different thing, we have not been invaded
Really? There are no terrorist cells in the US that are related to the organizations which carried out the attacks of 9/11 and against which the United States Congress has authorized the use of force?
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and this war is not the same as say WWI or WWII or even the Revolutionary War. This is a War on Terror which in itself is not the same thing because it is new!
So?
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I think the point here is the President and his office hid this wire tapping program from the other bodies of government.
Then I think you don't know what you're talking about, because the FISA court and the Congressional leadership were both informed about the program.
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Why bother having a Congress
That's the best question I've heard in some time...
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There has to be a system of checks and balances as the Fore Fathers intended.
Which Fore?
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#601272 - 08/18/06 01:25 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,857
Pulling people out of the ditc...
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If we were invaded then the plays would change and the strategies would be different
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm all for suspending common sense and happily sitting by waiting until we are invaded...then we could finally take some action...
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
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#601273 - 08/18/06 01:37 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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no, j, i think you don't get it. when his ability to wage war overlaps with domestic freedoms and liberties, his power is extremely limited.
Really? So, God forbid we're invaded on a mass scale...the President would need a warrant to invade the enemy's bunker! Hope Lincoln had court approval for Gettysburg...
Quote:
therefore, defining limits via law carves out and keeps sacred constitutional protections and at the same time allows him to prosecute his constitutional duty. now if those laws would unconstitutionally limit his power, then those laws would be unconstitutional. but it works both ways. by defining parameters, we at least have a baseline to adjudicate instances with.
I love it - you admit it would be unconsitutional to limit the power, but advocate for limiting the power.
i think i give you more credit than i should sometimes.
invaded on a mass scale?! strawman, party of one, your table is ready....
what did i admit? reread what i said, jerky. i simply was pointing out how the constitution works for what you are advocating. notice how i said it works both ways? poor, j.
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#601274 - 08/18/06 02:03 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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Really? There are no terrorist cells in the US that are related to the organizations which carried out the attacks of 9/11 and against which the United States Congress has authorized the use of force?
well, establish contours to the program that protect rights and limit what can be done to non-terrorist activities and i think we'll be okay. or do you feel the conservative congress is intellectually incapable of devising such limits?
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#601275 - 08/18/06 02:07 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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The "conservative" Congress is not authorized to devise such limits.
I said, "God forbid" that we were invaded on a mass scale. We're already being invaded. I'm illustrating the abusrdity of your (and other's) beliefs that this should be treated as a law enforcement issue. You'd have us reading Al Qaeda their Miranda rights.
You said, "if those laws would unconstitutionally limit his power, then those laws would be unconstitutional." Well, duh. The question is, what kind of law to limit the President's war-making powers would be Constitutional? Can you show me where the Constitution authorizes Congress to limit the President's war-making powers?
Thanks for playing, jerky.
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#601276 - 08/18/06 02:19 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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congress wouldn't be creating unconstitutional limits IN THE AREA WHERE THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T HAVE POWER. what are you missing here? if the surveillance is used for stuff other than anti-terrorism, it would be breaking the law because it is unconstitutional. what are you missing here?
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#601277 - 08/18/06 02:21 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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As much as we would all love to we cannot treat them any different then we would treat any other murder or internal terrorist. If we begin to do that then we are no better than them and in fact we let them win. They are not just out to kill us they are out to break us down and by losing our humanity then they will have succeeded.
As unfair as it seems sometimes we have to have laws in place to protect the innocent as well as the guilty. After all innocent until proven guilty.
If you do not think that the Congress is doing it's job then why don't you take your own advise, find a way to remove them by voting them out in your state and letting them know how you feel.
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#601278 - 08/18/06 02:31 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Posts: 12,846
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As much as we would all love to we cannot treat them any different then we would treat any other murder or internal terrorist. If we begin to do that then we are no better than them and in fact we let them win. They are not just out to kill us they are out to break us down and by losing our humanity then they will have succeeded.
As unfair as it seems sometimes we have to have laws in place to protect the innocent as well as the guilty. After all innocent until proven guilty.
If you do not think that the Congress is doing it's job then why don't you take your own advise, find a way to remove them by voting them out in your state and letting them know how you feel.
Oh, no! Not "letting the terrorists win"! If we treat this like a war, "the terrorists have already won"! If we start profiling, "the terrorists have already won"! If we don't keep watching American Idol, "the terrorists have already won"! LOL
Sometimes we have to have laws in place to protect the innocent as well as the guilty? Sometimes? Shouldn't we always have laws in place to protect the innocent? (Unless you are a full-term fetus in the birth canal with only your head exposed, of course.) And why do the guilty need protection, period?
Voting them out in my state? Is it that simple? Isn't there some nuance???
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congress wouldn't be creating unconstitutional limits IN THE AREA WHERE THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T HAVE POWER. what are you missing here?
You mean, in the area where the President doesn't have sole power, domestic law enforcement? Sure, pass a law related to that. You might as well pass a law that says he can't be President for life, too, since we have about as much evidence that he's trying to do that as we do that this program is being used for domestic law enforcement.
AT ANY RATE, that's not what this judge's decision was about. Non-sequitur, party of one, your table is ready.
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#601279 - 08/18/06 02:33 PM
Re: Civilizations Die from Suicide, Not by Murder
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Anonymous
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I think the point here is the President and his office hid this wire tapping program from the other bodies of government.
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Then I think you don't know what you're talking about, because the FISA court and the Congressional leadership were both informed about the program.
Well I tend to disagree with some of that Statement because the President did not consult the FISA Court which is the body that needs to approve things like that before authorizing the NSA in 2002 to begin this program. He also did not consult the full Congress as he should have.
This is waht started the issue in the first place becauce he did not take the necessary legal steps to get approval, I would bet that if he had then this would not be an issue. Not to mention the fact that we wouldn't be hearing about it all over the place thus informing the terriorist what we were doing.
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