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#603230 - 08/23/06 12:34 AM My How Times Have Changed
Fraudman CFCI Offline
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During WWII, the Germans landed eight sabateurs by submarine including their supplies to bomb strategic targets. Two were captured immediately and gave up their co-conspirators.

They went to trial in a military court to preserve the secrecy and six were executed in 1948, three years after the war ended. The other two were repatriated to Germany.

We are again in a war, albeit a different one, with terrorists. They are again landing "combatants" on oour shores to destroy their 21st century version of strategic targets.

Yet, there are those who oppose trying them in military courts, want to provide Miranda rights and all the protections of our judicial system afforded U.S. citizens who violate our criminal laws.

Those identified and taken into custody are here on a mission of destruction and mayhem with the intention to kill as many people, citizens or not, as possible.

It is time for the people of this couontry to wake up and understand that this "war" we are engaged in is like no other in our history.

Extremists of any ilk determined to undermine our way of life have no place in our open society. We must defend ourselves against those who are culturally and ideologically opposed to Western culture and who believe we are "infidels" that should be killed.

I am certain there are those in the Muslim world that wish to co-exist peacefully in the modern world while retaining their religious beliefs. My wish is that they would rise up and publicy condemn those who undermine their wishes rather than sitting silently and watching the carnage taking place in the world today.

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#603231 - 08/23/06 12:52 AM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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Quote:

Those identified and taken into custody are here on a mission of destruction




The prisoners at Guantanamo were not "here", they were taken into custody in the Middle East, unlike the WWII cases that you attempt to compare. These are not spies or saboteurs in our country.

Quote:

Yet, there are those who oppose trying them in military courts, want to provide Miranda rights and all the protections of our judicial system afforded U.S. citizens who violate our criminal laws.





Wrong. They can certainly be tried in military courts (as the Supreme Court ruled) and no one has said that they get Miranda rights, only the rights that we agreed that we would give prisoners when we signed the Geneva Convention.

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#603232 - 08/23/06 01:04 AM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Fraudman CFCI Offline
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Unreg, these prisoners are outside of the Geneva Conventions as they are not defined as "soldiers" or "military combatants". They are civilian terrorists. They do not have the rights of prisoners of war as outlined in the Convention as they do not represent the legal military force of any legitimate government. Many are not even citizens of the country they supposedly are fighting for and could be classsified as mercenaries.

Sorry, I do not buy this theory!

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#603233 - 08/23/06 01:39 AM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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Quote:

They do not have the rights of prisoners of war as outlined in the Convention as they do not represent the legal military force of any legitimate government.




Actually, they have rights under Common Article Three of the Geneva Convention. The Supreme Court ruled that they did, and the Supreme Court Justices are the ones that decide that issue, not you.

Disagree all you want, it won't change the law.

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#603234 - 08/23/06 01:38 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

They do not have the rights of prisoners of war as outlined in the Convention as they do not represent the legal military force of any legitimate government.




Actually, they have rights under Common Article Three of the Geneva Convention. The Supreme Court ruled that they did, and the Supreme Court Justices are the ones that decide that issue, not you.

Disagree all you want, it won't change the law.




What I'm sure Fraudman meant to say was, they should not have rights under the Geneva Conventions, due to the reasons he cited. Additionally, I do not recall Al Qaeda having been a signatory to the Conventions.

The fact that anyone would defend that decision shows just how crazy the arguments have become in this country, and it is all very depressing to me.

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#603235 - 08/23/06 01:44 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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If that is Fraudman's argument, he sure has an interesting way of introducing it. The article that he copied here says that we should try the terrorists in military courts.

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#603236 - 08/23/06 02:05 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:

Unreg, these prisoners are outside of the Geneva Conventions as they are not defined as "soldiers" or "military combatants".




Maybe I'm just naive, but how can we be at war if we are not fighting "soldiers?" Who are we at war with? A people? A country? A religion? Or an ideal?

What is really funny is that someone went out of their way to define the "enemy," obviously from a legal standpoint...
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#603237 - 08/23/06 02:11 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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A lot of this is technical argument -- arguing over the definition of a "soldier" vs. a "combatant" vs. a "terrorist" and whether certain rights apply. But let's step back and ask why we have things such as Miranda rights and the Geneva Conventions. They were to prevent abuses. A lot of the same people that are always flag waving in this country are the same that want to punish people without a trial. Certainly our justice system has gotten bogged down -- people we know are guilty get off every day on technicalities. I'm not saying we should give accused foreign terrorists the same rights as U.S. citizens, just that they should be accused with a specific crime, there should be some reasonable evidence presented that shows that they did it, and the whole process done within a reasonable period of time. What does holding prisoners for years in Guantanamo without accusing them accomplish. And if we condone torturing prisoners, does that not give our enemies justification to do the same. We shouldn't hamstring ourselves, but we still should set an example for the rest of the world. If Bush's mission is to spread democracy, shouldn't we be showing the world that democracy is a GOOD thing, and that we play by the same rules we want others to adopt?

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#603238 - 08/23/06 02:16 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

If that is Fraudman's argument, he sure has an interesting way of introducing it. The article that he copied here says that we should try the terrorists in military courts.




If it is an article that has been copied, I would suppose that they have their terminology confused and are objecting to the Supreme Court's usurping of the President's wartime authority to establish tribunals in which to try these terrorists.

Quote:

Maybe I'm just naive, but how can we be at war if we are not fighting "soldiers?"




We are generally fighting combatants who do not observe civilized rules of war and who should not be granted the protections of the Geneva Conventions because they do not observe them.

Quote:

Who are we at war with? A people? A country? A religion? Or an ideal?




Though the current adminstration often stumbles when it tries to communicate this, my opinion is that we should be at war with the people who would attempt to spread a fascist interpretation of the Islamic faith through the use of force, including terror, and with the countries who provide support to those people.

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#603239 - 08/23/06 02:21 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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Quote:

We are generally fighting combatants who do not observe civilized rules of war and who should not be granted the protections of the Geneva Conventions because they do not observe them.



aka we lose the moral high ground.

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#603240 - 08/23/06 02:21 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
MB Guy Offline
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TICG, I would say that your ideas (ideals?) are great in theory, and what we should strive for, but it seems to me that reality precludes us from having the luxury of having trials for these "combatants" or whatever term you apply to them.

I agree that we should do something with those in Gitmo, but I don't know if lengthy and expensive trials are the answer.

War is He!!, so torturing (if you call what they in our Iraq prison - I wouldn't) may be required at times to save lives. Sad, but true in my mind. And finally, it seems to me that no matter what we did, these animals we are fighting against would torture and kill barbarically regardless of how we treat captured combatants.
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#603241 - 08/23/06 02:24 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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Quote:

but it seems to me that reality precludes us from having the luxury of having trials for these "combatants" or whatever term you apply to them.



explain. why is this such an implausible idea?

Quote:

so torturing (if you call what they in our Iraq prison - I wouldn't) may be required at times to save lives.



if you torture a man enough, you can get him to say anything.
Quote:

it seems to me that no matter what we did, these animals we are fighting against would torture and kill barbarically regardless of how we treat captured combatants.



this is probably correct. we should lose the moral high ground and be dogs like them!

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#603242 - 08/23/06 02:26 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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So then what do we do? Honestly, aren't we losing something if we start acting like the people we are "fighting" against? Where does it end? Is there a line we will cross and someday be no better than them?

I guess what frustrates me the most is why? Why do they hate us so? Why can't we just live our lives and they theirs? What did "we" do to get here? And how do we get out? It boggles my mind and makes me so sad and a little afraid of what the future will hold.

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#603243 - 08/23/06 02:28 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Do we really believe torture is effective. Sure it will get them to say anything -- even crap they make up. If you tortured me I'd turn in all kinds of people that didn't do anything just to get you to stop.

I think a lot of warped people in the military torture because they enjoy it.

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#603244 - 08/23/06 02:30 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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Quote:

Do we really believe torture is effective. Sure it will get them to say anything -- even crap they make up. If you tortured me I'd turn in all kinds of people that didn't do anything just to get you to stop.

I think a lot of warped people in the military torture because they enjoy it.



the same motivation works for the death penalty, too: it's satisfying but it doesn't really accomplish what you think it will.

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#603245 - 08/23/06 02:35 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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(a) The reason not to torture is not because it doesn't work (it can - just ask the Pakistanis who interrogated one of the leaders of the recent British airline plot), and not because it gives our enemies the high ground (it doesn't - killing innocents is far worse than torturing the killers) or justification (they don't care), but because it debases ourselves. That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.

(b) I don't know anyone in this country who wants to abolish the American justice system, and I know a lot of people of fly who the American flag.

(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea.

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#603246 - 08/23/06 02:37 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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Quote:

That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.



not true, your neocon crowd should suggest such measures.

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#603247 - 08/23/06 02:38 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

I think a lot of warped people in the military torture because they enjoy it.




I think a lot of warped Americans don't know whose side they ought to be on and make outrageous statements against those defending their rights to do so.

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#603248 - 08/23/06 02:40 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.



not true, your neocon crowd should suggest such measures.




Glad to see the ACLU has a spokeswoman on the thread.

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#603249 - 08/23/06 02:42 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:

(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea




so do we just hold them for an inderterminate amount of time?
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#603250 - 08/23/06 02:42 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea




so do we just hold them for an inderterminate amount of time?




Would you prefer to house them?

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#603251 - 08/23/06 02:45 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.



not true, your neocon crowd should suggest such measures.




Glad to see the ACLU has a spokeswoman/b] on the thread.



j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...

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#603252 - 08/23/06 02:47 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Bengals Fan Offline
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Personally, I'm a conservative, but torture isn't the answer to anything.

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#603253 - 08/23/06 02:47 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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The he11 of suburbia
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea




so do we just hold them for an inderterminate amount of time?




Would you prefer to house them?




I would prefer we either accuse them and punish them or let them go. To hold them unaccused indefinitely makes them look an awful lot like political prisoners.

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#603254 - 08/23/06 02:53 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...




???

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