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#603255 - 08/23/06 02:56 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

I would prefer we either accuse them and punish them or let them go.




They stand accused of being illegal combatants. Even in past wars, when the enemy has been deserving of prisoner-of-war status, we've never released the prisoners prior to the end of hostilities. Meanwhile, in June, the Supreme Court threw up a huge roadblock to any sort of judicial resolution.

Quote:

To hold them unaccused indefinitely makes them look an awful lot like political prisoners.




Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...The US is holding political prisoners...

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#603256 - 08/23/06 02:59 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Quote:

j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...




???



aclu spokeswoman?

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#603257 - 08/23/06 02:59 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
DeeQ Offline
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DeeQ
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,762
Turnpike Exit 10
Quote:

Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...




Tell it to Abu Graib.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

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#603258 - 08/23/06 03:10 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Personally, I'm a conservative, but torture isn't the answer to anything.




Personally, I'm a conservative, but non-sequiturs aren't the answer to anything.

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#603259 - 08/23/06 03:11 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Quote:

Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...




Tell it to Abu Graib.




Ah, more stereotyping from the Devil! Good job!

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#603260 - 08/23/06 03:12 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...




???



aclu spokeswoman?




Oh, sorry - thought I was replying to a female. Not that that's a bad thing, so I'm not sure why any offense was taken.

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#603261 - 08/23/06 03:22 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...




???



aclu spokeswoman?




Oh, sorry - thought I was replying to a female. Not that that's a bad thing, so I'm not sure why any offense was taken.



you seem to know every other one of my posts. you responded to my post with that comment and now you are in apparent disbelief.

sure i believe you

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#603262 - 08/23/06 03:22 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
MB Guy Online
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 10,124
Way, way south.
Quote:

Quote:

Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...




Tell it to Abu Graib.




Do you seriously call that torture? Please, I have seen worse things in college fraternity hazing.
_________________________
Giddy up.

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#603263 - 08/23/06 03:24 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...




Tell it to Abu Graib.




Do you seriously call that torture? Please, I have seen worse things in college fraternity hazing.



you call what they did/do at sig nu hazing, marky?

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#603264 - 08/23/06 03:31 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

you seem to know every other one of my posts. you responded to my post with that comment and now you are in apparent disbelief.

sure i believe you




Hey, anon, I apologized for the mistake. But I still don't get why you would get your panties all in a wad.

Oops...

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#603265 - 08/23/06 03:36 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Quote:

you seem to know every other one of my posts. you responded to my post with that comment and now you are in apparent disbelief.

sure i believe you




Hey, anon, I apologized for the mistake. But I still don't get why you would get your panties all in a wad.

Oops...



your incredulity is SO believable.

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#603266 - 08/23/06 03:49 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Fraudman CFCI Offline
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Fraudman CFCI
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,189
Land of Steady Habits
My comments here are my own. No article was copied.

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#603267 - 08/23/06 05:07 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

your incredulity is SO believable.




See, when I read that, it just sounds like a woman's voice. I guess that's what happened with your earlier posts. Again, my apologies.

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#603268 - 08/23/06 05:16 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Extremists of any ilk determined to undermine our way of life have no place in our open society.




Then why does popular American politics cater only to the party extremes? Why does the media promote extremist views? Why was Dubya elected the second time? Why do fringe elements of both parties hold sway today?

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#603269 - 08/23/06 05:20 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Hrothgar Geiger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,395
Jersey Shore
Well, just to add to the general hilarity...

Fraudman, while revisiting stuff we did during WWII, how would you feel about revisiting internment camps for "Middle Eastern male Islamists, 17 - 40 years of age" since, in another thread, we seem to have fastened on a crystal clear terrorist profle?

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#603270 - 08/23/06 05:27 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Quote:

Then why does popular American politics cater only to the party extremes? Why does the media promote extremist views? Why was Dubya elected the second time? Why do fringe elements of both parties hold sway today?




Look, I disagree with the Democratic party almost as much as anyone, but I don't think it's fair to say that the fringe elements of either party hold sway (yet) - yes, they pulled off a (temporary?) victory in Connecticut - but they lost in Georgia. They lost in the 2004 Presidential primaries. Kerry is not (was not?) an extremist. Neither is Bush.

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#603271 - 08/23/06 05:29 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
HappyGilmore Offline
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Posts: 19,417
Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:

in past wars, when the enemy has been deserving of prisoner-of-war status




I'm fairly certain that to be a prisoner of war, you must be a soldier or enemy combatant. Your double-speak is interesting...

From Wikipedia...A prisoner of war (POW, PoW, or PW) is a soldier, sailor, airman, marine, or any combatant who is imprisoned by an enemy power during or immediately after an armed conflict. By international law and several mutually agreed conventions, prisoners of war are required to be treated humanely and diplomatically. Specifically Chapter II of the Annex to the 1907 Hague Convention covered the treatment of prisoners of war in detail. These were further expanded in the Third Geneva Convention of 1929, and its revision of 1949.

However, nations vary in their dedication to following these laws. Of late, numerous countries have openly flouted these laws. In particular, USA has been sharply criticized by the international community for its alleged mistreatment of detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and Abu Ghraib, Iraq. However, the US government continues to insist that these detainees do not qualify as POWs (see below).

Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention protects captured military personnel, some guerrilla fighters and certain civilians. It applies from the moment a prisoner is captured until he or she is released or repatriated. One of the main provisions of the convention makes it illegal to torture prisoners, and states that a prisoner can only be required to give his or her name, date of birth, rank and service number (if applicable).

The status of POW does not include unarmed non-combatants who are captured in time of war; they are protected by the Fourth Geneva Convention rather than the Third Geneva Convention.
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time

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#603272 - 08/23/06 05:37 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
Unregistered

I tend to agree on Kerry, but Bush just seems out there. In 2000, I voted for him because I was not a fan of the Gore's. In 2004, I voted for Kerry, but it was more of a vote against Bush, than for Kerry.

I'm registered Republican, but in reality I'm a middle of the Independent or moderate (Liberal? Is there such a thing) Republican at heart. I get tired of hearing extremist views at political events, fundraisers, etc...Abortion and gay marriage shouldn't even be national issues, each state should decide.

National issues should be the environment, foreign policy, economy, defense, immigration, creating a strong infrstructure, etc...

Hence my mantra: We need a viable third party option.

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#603273 - 08/23/06 05:41 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
steven1950 Offline
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steven1950
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,015
San Francisco
If bush and the warmongers in Washington were so damned sure of their position, then why did they put their "prisoners" in Gitmo?

And whether or not bush's prisoners are covered by the Geneva Convention or not, what about the "spirit" of the Convention and the US Constitution? It seems to me that if this administration cared about public opinion, here and abroad, those men at Gitmo would be moved to the US, given access to our court system, and tried by a jury.

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#603274 - 08/23/06 06:24 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
straw Offline
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straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

If bush and the warmongers in Washington were so damned sure of their position, then why did they put their "prisoners" in Gitmo?

And whether or not bush's prisoners are covered by the Geneva Convention or not, what about the "spirit" of the Convention and the US Constitution? It seems to me that if this administration cared about public opinion, here and abroad, those men at Gitmo would be moved to the US , given access to our court system, and tried by a jury.




Is fighting in a war a crime?

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#603275 - 08/23/06 06:57 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Quote:

in past wars, when the enemy has been deserving of prisoner-of-war status




I'm fairly certain that to be a prisoner of war, you must be a soldier or enemy combatant. Your double-speak is interesting...




A "prisoner of war" is due certain obligations under the Geneva Conventions. Illegal combatants are not. There is no double-speak.

I would be careful about trusting Wikipedia. In hamdan, the SCOTUS majority basically ruled that the Guantanamo detainees are subject to the protections of Article 3 because - get this - the conflict was "not of an international character". The Court (intentionally?) confused the type of conflict we are involved in (with non-signatories) with the type that the Convention was meant to address (a civil war).

Quote:

It seems to me that if this administration cared about public opinion, here and abroad, those men at Gitmo would be moved to the US, given access to our court system, and tried by a jury.




Thankfully, this administration cares more about keeping Americans from being murdered than it does about public opinion, here and (especially) abroad.

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#603276 - 08/23/06 07:02 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Anonymous
Unregistered

So here's a question to fan the flames a little.............were we "illegal combatants" when we began to uprise in the Revolutionary Times?

With your descriptions we were and therefore would not be afforded any rights then!

Hmmmm....

I know I know, we were not terriorists but we did kill a few British because we opposed taxes! (Obviously more than that but you get my drift!)

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#603277 - 08/23/06 07:10 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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I believe the quote at the signing of the Declaration of Independence was (something to the effect of) "we must hang together, or we shall hang separately". The revolutionaries would have been treated as traitors, not "illegal combatants" - they were uniformed and targeted the British (and mercenary) military, not civilians.

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#603278 - 08/23/06 08:38 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
RandomName Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,373
Austin, TX
Quote:

The revolutionaries would have been treated as traitors, not "illegal combatants" - they were uniformed...




Not all the time. I just read about this last night, so I'm seizing a chance to be pedantic. The townfolk of Machias, for instance, took it poorly when a British schooner threatened to make an example of their liberty-lovin' belligerence. The local firebrands, all non-uniformed civilians and armed mainly with fowling pieces and pitchforks, then commandeered a sloop and attacked the British vessel and forced it to surrender.

The Liberty ship SS Jeremiah O'Brien, now a museum at the wharf in San Francisco, was named after the leader of the Yankee rabblerousers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_O'Brien

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#603279 - 08/23/06 08:42 PM Re: My How Times Have Changed
Jokerman Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

The local firebrands, all non-uniformed civilians...




Fair point. It was still a military target, though, so I don't think you can make the leap to call them terrorists.

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