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#605280 - 08/25/06 03:54 PM Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Anonymous
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Venezue la Dictator Hugo Chavez has vowed to bring down the U.S. government. Chavez, president of Venezuela, told a TV audience: "Enough of imperialist aggression; we must tell the world: down with the U.S. empire. We have to bury imperialism this century."

The guest on his television program, beamed across Venezuela, was Cindy Sheehan, the antiwar activist. Chavez recently had as his guest Harry Belafonte, who called President Bush "the greatest terrorist in the world."

Chavez is pushing a socialist revolution and has a close alliance with Cuban dictator Fidel Castro.

Regardless of your feelings about the war in Iraq, the issue here is that we have a socialist dictator vowing to bring down the government of the U.S. And he is using our money to achieve his goal!

The Venezuela government, run by dictator Chavez, is the sole owner of Citgo gas company Sales of products at Citgo stations send money back to Chavez to help him in his vow to bring down our government.

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Please decide that you will not be shopping at a Citgo station. Why should U.S. citizens who love freedom be financing a dictator who has vowed to take down our government?

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#605281 - 08/25/06 05:29 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Bengals Fan Offline
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While there is some truth to this, it seems you are simply posting an email you got, word for word, and not providing any individual thought. This is OLD news, by the way, and not entirely true.

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#605282 - 08/25/06 05:33 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Dan Persfull Offline
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Plus Citgo sponsors the B.A.S.S. fishing tour. So they can't be all bad.

I've seen variations of this email with other petroleum companies named in them.
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#605283 - 08/25/06 05:58 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Ahhhh, a tankful of Citgo and a nice Cuban cigar....

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#605284 - 08/25/06 06:03 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

This is OLD news, by the way, and not entirely true.




Which part is not true?

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#605285 - 08/25/06 06:11 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

This is OLD news, by the way, and not entirely true.




Which part is not true?




How about the "to help him in his vow to bring down our government" part. Ok, so Chavez get profits from Citgo. Do you really think he has any chance of bringing down the U.S.? If he wanted to disrupt our oil supply by shutting down Citgo's production, he already would have. These are lunatic rantings or just pure rhetoric to stir up his people. (you right-wingers should recognize that tactic).

If Chavez really wanted to disrupt the oil market, he could cut Citgo's prices in half and force the other oil companies to lose some of their huge profits trying to compete.

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#605286 - 08/25/06 06:13 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
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You don't think he really wants to cause harm to our government? I should know better than to try to convince you and Stephen that any latin leftist is anything less than a demigod.

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#605287 - 08/25/06 06:22 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Quote:

You don't think he really wants to cause harm to our government? I should know better than to try to convince you and Stephen that any latin leftist is anything less than a demigod.




I'm sure he'd love to, just as I'm sure Castro would love to, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. These guys may hate the U.S., but they love their little empires more -- they're not dumb enough or dedicated enough to a cause to lose the good thing they got.

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#605288 - 08/25/06 06:35 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Sorry, but when he is allying himself with the mullahs in Tehran, it is beyond mere rhetoric.

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#605289 - 08/25/06 06:41 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Maybe if our leaders were willing to talk to our enemies, we could sort out how much is rhetoric and how much is a genuine threat.

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#605290 - 08/25/06 06:42 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Maybe if our enemies were convinced that the entire United States stood against them, they would be far less bold.

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#605291 - 08/25/06 06:55 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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The difference is that some generalize as to who the enemy is (e.g., fascist fundamentalist muslims), and others want to know exactly what we're fighting.

Wouldn't you agree that it's easier to fight an enemy when you know who that enemy is, rather than trying to fight some nebulous evil force.

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#605292 - 08/25/06 06:56 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Easier? Yes. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our enemies.

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#605293 - 08/25/06 06:56 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Quote:

Sorry, but when he is allying himself with the mullahs in Tehran, it is beyond mere rhetoric.




Wait a second, this is different from our wanting alliances with the nations in his own geographic area to go after his form of government how?

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#605294 - 08/25/06 06:57 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Morally equivalent, are we?

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#605295 - 08/25/06 06:58 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Quote:

Morally equivalent, are we?




Considering his comments were in response to a certain preacherman saying he thought the US should assassinate Chavez? Uhmn yeah.

Considering we have funding insurgents in his neighborhood since at least the 80s? Uhmn yeah.

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#605296 - 08/25/06 07:00 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Quote:

Easier? Yes. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our enemies.




I didn't say choose them, I said figure out who they are.

This isn't some old western where we just shoot at everyone wearing a black hat.

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#605297 - 08/25/06 07:01 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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perhaps we just shoot at everyone who vows to kill americans

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#605298 - 08/25/06 07:13 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Morally equivalent, are we?




Considering his comments were in response to a certain preacherman saying he thought the US should assassinate Chavez? Uhmn yeah.

Considering we have funding insurgents in his neighborhood since at least the 80s? Uhmn yeah.




Are you out of your mind?! He is justified in allying with a terrorist regime because a preacher (who's never been elected to anything) in the US said something mean? Because we funded those who opposed communist thugs, it is ok for him to ally with a regime that wants to eradicate Israel and the US?

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#605299 - 08/25/06 07:32 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Your complaint was:

Quote:

some generalize as to who the enemy is (e.g., fascist fundamentalist muslims), and others want to know exactly what we're fighting. Wouldn't you agree that it's easier to fight an enemy when you know who that enemy is, rather than trying to fight some nebulous evil force.




I said that unfortunately, we didn't have the luxury of choosing an easily-defined enemy.

Quote:

I didn't say choose them, I said figure out who they are.




I didn't say that you said we could choose them. I said we can't - my point is that they are who they are. We can't pick a convenient enemy. It's not simply a matter of identifying them as "this group of people who are geographically located within ______ and wear a particular flag on their uniforms." They don't operate that way.

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#605300 - 08/25/06 07:43 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Morally equivalent, are we?




Considering his comments were in response to a certain preacherman saying he thought the US should assassinate Chavez? Uhmn yeah.

Considering we have funding insurgents in his neighborhood since at least the 80s? Uhmn yeah.




Are you out of your mind?! He is justified in allying with a terrorist regime because a preacher (who's never been elected to anything) in the US said something mean? Because we funded those who opposed communist thugs, it is ok for him to ally with a regime that wants to eradicate Israel and the US?




He is no less justified in allying himself with our enemies than we are in allying with his. Do I like his friends? No. Are we any better with some of our "allies"? Has he done anything FRANCE has not done in this case? After all, they were opposed to an invasion of Iraq because it meant a large dent in their pocketbook if they couldn't keep selling the genocidal maniac weapons.

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#605301 - 08/25/06 07:53 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Quote:

He is no less justified in allying himself with our enemies than we are in allying with his.




All else equal, yes he would be. All else is not equal.

Quote:

Has he done anything FRANCE has not done in this case?




I'm no fan of the French, but they aren't calling for the overthrow of our government.

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#605302 - 08/25/06 08:23 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
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Quote:

Quote:

He is no less justified in allying himself with our enemies than we are in allying with his.




All else equal, yes he would be. All else is not equal.

Quote:

Has he done anything FRANCE has not done in this case?




I'm no fan of the French, but they aren't calling for the overthrow of our government.




But aren't we calling for the overthrow of HIS government?

I'm not saying the man shouldn't be out of power, but I am saying he has a point when what he has actually said is not that he wants to overthrow the US government, but that he will not allow us to come to his backyard without consequences.

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#605303 - 08/25/06 08:28 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:

This isn't some old western where we just shoot at everyone wearing a black hat.






Yeah, Shane wore black...
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#605304 - 08/25/06 08:33 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:

But aren't we calling for the overthrow of HIS government?...he has a point...




You're not really understanding the problem with moral equivalence, are you? Let me try to explain: The US Army invaded Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany fought back. This does not mean that the actions of Nazi Germany and the US Army were morally equivalent.

Similarly, the US has advocated for a different government than this dicatator's in Venezuala, and is supporting democratic governments that will oppose him. The dictator has advocated for an overthrow of the US government, and is allying himself with other dictators that share his goal. That does not mean that the actions of the US and Chavez are morally equivalent.

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